Deep Waters Relationship Advice

Hi christianthought. Thank you.  I truly appreciate your input. If you have something to share that will help us in our understanding, you are always welcome to share at any time.

Good evening!  I really appreciate your response; I was unsure if this forum was still being moderated.  It is really good to talk with you again.

That being said, of course I still disagree with portions of your reasoning.  I almost didn't respond again, because I didn't want to appear to be one of those jerks that beat up other Christians with Bible verses/knowledge. 

Hello christianthought. Thanks for posting your thoughts. I am glad that you are enjoying the book and appreciate your input. There is a difference between submission and obedience, as was indicated in chapter 2. They are not the same. Biblical submission implies order/position and equality, not obedience. Obedience is a response to a command, and obedience implies the relation of a superior to a subordinate. This is not submission. No wife wants to be (or should be) commanded. No wife wants to be treated as a subordinate. No wife wants to be forced into obedience. It may be that the problem that you see with women not wanting to "submit" has nothing to do with submission at all. It may be that the problem you see has to do with those who think that to submit means to obey. Submission and obedience are not the same, and any person that treats them as the same, will create problems in his/her marriage.

The meaning of the word submission does involve a military term, but there is no "commanding officer" in marriage. There is headship not rulership. Biblical submission is not like the relationship between a general and a private. It is more like two generals, equal in status, strategizing and carrying out plans together. Do you remember that God also calls for mutual submission? If your idea of the commanding officer were correct, how could there ever be mutual submission? Is a general ever required to "submit" to -- or as you define it, obey -- a lesser officer? No. Never forget that God sees husband and wife as equal in status, different in roles and responsibilities. The only Superior in the marital relationship is God.

Read again about the distinction of the husband's headship from Chapter 2 - Zipporah's Sisters:

QuoteEphesians 5:23 tells us that the husband is the head of the wife. In the Greek, there are two different and distinct words that are translated head. The first is arche which is used to denote first in terms of importance and power (we use it in such words as archangel, archbishop, archenemy). It also means ruler. Paul did not use the word arche when he spoke of the husband being the head. This lets us know that in God's eyes, the husband is not first in terms of importance and power, and he is not the ruler of his wife.

Instead of the word arche Paul used the word kephale (pronounced kef-ah-LAY). This word means head as in the part of one's body; it was also used to mean foremost in terms of position. It was never used to mean leader or boss or chief or ruler. Kephale is also a military term that means one who leads, but not in the sense of director. A director sits back and gives instructions, commands or tasks for someone else to follow or carry out, but does not get fully involved or lead in the doing of those things. A husband who functions as a director is not fulfilling the biblical mandate of submission. The husband must be the kephale -- one who goes before the troops -- not someone who orders the troops from a safe distance. The kephale is the leader in the sense of being in the lead, or in military terminology, he is the first one into battle. The husband is not the ruler or the boss or the chief of his wife; he is not first in terms of importance and power; he is not the leader in the sense of one who gives out orders for his wife to follow. The husband is in the lead position. In other words, the husband is to lead by example.

You said that "if two people are agreed, then there is no need for a leader." This is faulty reasoning. If what you are saying is true, why are there pastors? Are they not leaders, and are they not leaders of people who are in agreement with what God has said? You are a believer and your pastor is a believer. You are equal in status before God, but your roles and responsibilities are different. That is why there are pastors. Different roles/functions; same status. In marriage, there should be agreement, otherwise, how can you walk/live together the way God intended. There should be agreement, and there should be headship also.

You said "the purpose [of submission] is for when there is a disagreement, or if [you] make a decision that she [your wife] may not be able to understand (after [you] have done [your] best to explain it)." Again, this is wrong thinking. Submission is not for when there is a disagreement. If there is a disagreement, that is the time to get understanding. If your wife is not in agreement with a decision you feel you must make, your goal should be to make sure you understand why she does not agree. You will miss it if what you are doing when you are "trying your best to explain [your] decision" is really trying to convince her that the decision that you've already made is the right one. You should agree together and then make the decision, not make the decision and then try to agree on it.

What decision would you ever need to make (as a believer correctly applying biblical principles), with which your believing wife (also correctly applying biblical principles) would not come into agreement? Assuming the command to obey God rather than man is not being violated, if there is not agreement, you should wait and pray until there is agreement. God has called us to peace. The decisions you make should come into alignment with what promotes godly peace. If you feel that God is leading you a certain way, and your wife has not come into agreement yet with what God has revealed to you, keep in mind that God knew how your wife would initially respond when He revealed His plan to you and has factored the time necessary for her to come into agreement into the equation. God expects us to "Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace." (Ephesians 4:2-3).

You said, "consider Christ and the Church.  However we look at it, He is our Leader, and we follow Him.  We don't always understand or agree, but part of submission is trusting the leader." God instructs us to get understanding. That means understanding is available, so you're not limited to following without understanding, neither should your wife be forced to follow without understanding. As you suggested, let's consider Christ as our Leader, more specifically, as the role model for husbands in particular. He leads by example. He shares his thoughts, plans, and instructions with us. He respects our will (i.e. our decision-making ability). He is completely obedient to the Father. He loves us unconditionally. He never forces us to obey Him. He has proven Himself to be trustworthy. What about Him--who He is, what He says/does-- would you, as a believer, ever not be able to come into agreement with?

When submission is an issue in marriage, it's because there is a lack of understanding about what true biblical submission is about (as spoken about in Chapter 2 - Zipporah's Sisters). When a wife is functioning under biblical headship, it is a beautiful situation, especially for her. Biblical submission is a place of safety, rest, and harmony. Where did you get the idea that you are in authority over your wife? You are her head, not her ruler. The centurion you mentioned said he was a man under authority... under not in authority. The authority he was recognizing was Christ's authority, not his own. He also spoke of giving commands to his servants (Matthew 8:5-10). Your wife is not your servant, and you are not her authority. You are her head, and you are both under Christ's authority. That means He does the commanding, and you (both) do the following. Leave your wife room to follow you as you follow Christ and submission to you as the head in the marriage will no longer be an issue.

Good evening...my apologies for not fully reading the instructions!  I am reading the book, and enjoying it, but I do have a question/opposing viewpoint (somewhat) regarding submission.

I agree that submission is not servitude (although we should serve) and inequality (even though we should regard each other more than ourselves).  Submission does imply obedience, though.  I agree that it is willful in motive, or at least is supposed to be, but it does include it.

I was in the military, which is one of the descriptions of the word used for submission.  In that sense, you obeyed your commanding officer, whether you knew/understood the motive, or whether you agreed or not.  I understand that we as men need to be caring towards our wives, and not hard and cold, but the fact of the matter is that there are going to be decisions that she doesn't agree with.  As the leader, my job is to take the lead in making decisions.

If two people are agreed, then there is no need for a leader.  The purpose is for when there is a disagreement, or if I make a decision that she may not be able to understand (after I have done my best to explain it), then I have to make the decision.

Also, consider Christ and the Church.  However we look at it, He is our Leader, and we follow Him.  We don't always understand or agree, but part of submission is trusting the leader.  Now I am speaking about the norm, and not the exceptions, e.g. if the husband is unsaved or something.  A big problem that I see is that women don't want to submit, and things are being geared to accommodate that unwillingness to be accountable under authority. 

I agree with the centurion in the Gospels, in that I am in authority (as a husband), and under authority (as a servant of Christ).  So I am accountable to God, and to my wife, b/c we are teammates.  She is accountable God, and to me too.  Submission is an act of the will, but it is also explicitly stated in the Scriptures.

Hi Endonurse,

First, please know that I agree with all that has been written to you & for you on this thread ... Amen?  And I feel your pain & uncertainty.

Spiritually, I see a greater need in you my sister, one that does have something to do with what you've written about (re: your specific issue with this man), yet more to do with your badly bruised heart; something that you've been struggling with long before your current situation.  It is not easy to be rejected and then lured into a false sense of hope by someone; which is what appears to have happened to you - especially with the new boundaries (changing of your relationship rules ... without notice) that I'm seeing:

Quote"Well the problem is he was to come home in Feb 2010, but decided to extend for another year, he said that is he not ready for a relationship and that it scares him to think about restarting his life, well you would think that that would be enough for me to move on..."

My sister, there is a phrase that I've often heard (perhaps you have too) & the more I live & grow ... the more it rings true, in soooo many situations - especially in this one.  The phrase is ...

"Hurting people - Hurt people". 

Meaning, when an individual is in pain there is an almost uncontrollable - inevitable urge to emit (release) that pain - into/onto the atmosphere.  Now usually, that "pain" is thrown out towards & accepted by those people whom we sub-consciously feel are closest (emotionally speaking) to us.  Why do we do this - you may ask???  I believe that we do this because sub-consciously we know THESE are the ones who will accept our venom & continue to nurture it.  Nurture our venom.  This appears to be what has happened to you with this man for whom you care so deeply.  This "hurting" action can be & often is cyclical & infectious!  It infects the unsuspecting party (you) - devastates them (you) & then "they" (you) too are sure to be more apt to release that hurt into/onto some other unsuspecting individual.

So now, how do we heal from this evil & stop the madness - the fear - anger???  Hmmm ...  Perhaps God's Inspiration (The Holy Bible) holds a "pearl" or two, or three, for us.  Here the Apostle Paul speaks concerning his own infirmity:



Now, to those who view The Gospel of Jesus The Christ as a "mystery", the above scripture may seem masochistical & ridiculous!  However, to those who have had a PERSONAL encounter with The Lord - the opposite will live eternally as truth ... Amen?

Endonurse, regarding your situation ... perhaps the above scripture could be speaking:

This "weakness" - this "thorn" -that the Apostle Paul beseeched the Lord to remove "3 times", was never removed by God, even as much as He loved Paul!  Why???  Because, when it comes to "our own issues", God's compassion remains firm!  Our Deity has proven His patience with us, but His patience must never be confused with concession (giving us what we TRULY THINK that we want), because our Father in Heaven has created the total picture.  It is "we" who must strive daily to achieve HIS pleasure. 

When we become painfully consumed with our own begging-pleading-demanding that God bring us a mate, we block His love from enhancing our collective life. The silent anger that we hold builds a wall between Him and us. If we were to be painfully honest with ourselves, then we'd come to the realization that our demand for our own idea(s) of perfection is a refusal of God's love because we want our own selfish desires met. God will never stop loving us, but we ignore Him when we desperately seek a human being to make us happy. Whatever we depend upon for our happiness will wind up controlling us. 

Example:  If we believe that we need a mate to be satisfied, then people, rather than God, will dictate our lives.

Surely it is quite normal and Godly good, to desire a mate, yet perhaps we seek too much from them???  Meaning, the unconditional love we sub-consciously require from our mates may never be fulfilled because this heart craving belongs exclusively to "The One" ... the only One ... our Deity!  Better that we love & trust in GOD first & always, understanding that (no matter what - no matter how much it hurts) when we make our own mistakes & no matter how much those mistakes cost us ... He will always be there to love & help us. 

If we have received Salvation then we know & TRUST that through The Son  -  Jesus The Christ, we have & keep our peace, our joy and our victory. God is in control of everything and what God has for us, no one can diminish, control or destroy!   

Endonurse, you deserve only the best that this life here on earth has to offer.  Seeing this - believing this, is your life-choice.  Be bold in your getting; bold enough to acknowledge & be thankful for His blessings ... even the ones that begin with:

"I'm just not ready for a relationship ..."  

Single Brothers & Sister's, when ya' here them words ... please don't waste your time tryin' to analyze them ... simply ... Bless God & keep movin' & keep trusting in the Lord!


From my heart,

Gracious

Hello Endonurse and welcome to Deep Waters. A revelation from the Lord often requires our participation. For example, you can receive a prophetic word, but that does not guarantee that it will come to pass automatically. Oftentimes, we are required to participate in the fulfillment of that revelation or word of prophecy by praying the promise through to fulfillment and activating our faith. When you receive a word from the Lord, you have to deal with it on multiple levels.

First, deal with it at the spirit level. This can only be done through prayer and the Word of God. God does not create confusion, so if there is confusion, clarification is needed. When God reveals something to us, He expects us to seek Him and not circumstances for clarification. He encourages us to not become anxious, but instead to talk with Him and He promises (in Philippians 4:6-8) that if we do this, His peace will guard our hearts (spirits) and minds (souls). Look and listen to the Word for answers. As you do this, God will see to it that you receive the Word you need to strengthen your faith.

Secondly, deal with it at the soul level. This is where you are going to need to bring your emotions in line with what you are receiving from the Word of God. In this situation, as you described it, you may need to minimize or discontinue contact with your friend if that continued contact is causing you emotional turmoil. From what you have said, your friend has clearly stated that he is not ready to move forward in a relationship with you. In his mind, he may feel/believe that, by stating that, he has already done what he needs to do as far as disengaging himself from the relationship. He may interpret your continuation of the relationship as it was before as your being okay with what he has said. If you're not okay with it, you should clearly state that and take whatever steps are necessary to preserve the peace of your soul.

Lastly, you need to deal with it at the physical level. When a person is moving in faith, that one has to divorce him/herself from the physical. Faith is not by sight (i.e. by physical senses). Faith does not consider the information received via the senses; it only considers the information received from God. If you are going by what you see/hear from others or from your circumstances, that is not faith.

You need to be certain of what you have received from God and through the Word of God. If you are not certain of the word you have received, you cannot have faith for it. If you do not have faith for it, get a promise from the scriptures (e.g. Proverbs 3:5-6; James 1:5) and pray it through until you have an assurance in your spirit of what you have received. If you cannot get that assurance in your spirit, let it go.

Hi! While I have never been married, I've been in a situation where I sensed God was showing me a certain man, and the best thing to do is to put it in God's hands and back off from contacting the man. If he starts to inquire why you haven't been in touch, just tell him you've been busy. Use wisdom, be discerning, and don't let your concerns about this man overshadow other areas of your life, because that's important, too.

Hi! While I have never been married, I've been in a situation where I sensed God was showing me a certain man, and the best thing to do is to put it in God's hands and back off from contacting the man. If he starts to inquire why you haven't been in touch, just tell him you've been busy. Use wisdom, be discerning, and don't let your concerns about this man overshadow other areas of your life, because that's important, too.

I have been widowed for 4 years, I meet a man online who loves the Lord and we had a wonderful time together, talking everyday for hours by phone, Im, and skype.  He was working as a contractor oversees, he came to see me twice and it was like we had known each other for years, I have not meet his family, spoke on the phone to his mom amd sisters, but they all seem to think that we were perfect for each other.  He was married for 20years, divorced since 2006, I was married for 26 years.  His wife had several affairs that caused the marriage to end, however he says he forgave her and loves her with the love of Christ.  Well the problem is he was to come home in Feb 2010, but decided to extend for another year, he said that is he not ready for a relationship and that it scares him to think about restarting his life, well you would think that that would be enough for me to move on, but I can't, I love him and God showed me a vision of us married, everytime I try to move away from him emotionally, the Lord send me reassurance, the Spirit lead me to Habakkuk 2:2-4.  Just today when I was talking to this man he showed me a house in GA that looked very similar to the house God showed me in the vision.  I am having trouble keeping my faith in this situation.  The man said that it is not fair to me to continue with him, because he knows that I want to be in a relationship and that he is not ready and does not know when he will be ready, that was two months ago and yet  we still talk daily, share our hearts, study the word together, watch tv and enjoy each others company on skype. I am confused, any thoughts would be appericated. Thanks and may God bless you all.

Aleathea Dupree, Deep Waters relationship forum Founder and Administrator, Biblical Counselor, and author of, THOUGH THE VISION TARRY: Waiting For My Promised Mate, invites you to subscribe to her latest book, CHEER UP YOUR WIFE: Biblical Advice for the Newlywed and Nearly Dead.

CHEER UP YOUR WIFE is a living book which is being blogged online at www.cheerupyourwife.info. Each chapter will be posted as it is finished, so you will be reading the book as it is written in real-time. This is a dynamic project as supplemental material and resources will be added as the book progresses and in response to your interaction.

If you are a wife who is disappointed, disgruntled, dissatisfied, and just plain unhappy, hope is on the way! If you are a husband married to such a wife, help is on the way! If you are single desirous of marriage, or already married and don't want to end up in either of the above categories, pay attention! This book is an encouragement, and a challenge, and a call to commitment to lay, repair, and strengthen the foundations of our marriages by looking at practical ways to carry out God's mandate to "cheer up your wife!"

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