Zipporah's sisters

[christianthought]

Good evening...my apologies for not fully reading the instructions!  I am reading the book, and enjoying it, but I do have a question/opposing viewpoint (somewhat) regarding submission.

I agree that submission is not servitude (although we should serve) and inequality (even though we should regard each other more than ourselves).  Submission does imply obedience, though.  I agree that it is willful in motive, or at least is supposed to be, but it does include it.

I was in the military, which is one of the descriptions of the word used for submission.  In that sense, you obeyed your commanding officer, whether you knew/understood the motive, or whether you agreed or not.  I understand that we as men need to be caring towards our wives, and not hard and cold, but the fact of the matter is that there are going to be decisions that she doesn't agree with.  As the leader, my job is to take the lead in making decisions.

If two people are agreed, then there is no need for a leader.  The purpose is for when there is a disagreement, or if I make a decision that she may not be able to understand (after I have done my best to explain it), then I have to make the decision.

Also, consider Christ and the Church.  However we look at it, He is our Leader, and we follow Him.  We don't always understand or agree, but part of submission is trusting the leader.  Now I am speaking about the norm, and not the exceptions, e.g. if the husband is unsaved or something.  A big problem that I see is that women don't want to submit, and things are being geared to accommodate that unwillingness to be accountable under authority. 

I agree with the centurion in the Gospels, in that I am in authority (as a husband), and under authority (as a servant of Christ).  So I am accountable to God, and to my wife, b/c we are teammates.  She is accountable God, and to me too.  Submission is an act of the will, but it is also explicitly stated in the Scriptures.

[Forum Administrator]

Hello christianthought. Thanks for posting your thoughts. I am glad that you are enjoying the book and appreciate your input. There is a difference between submission and obedience, as was indicated in chapter 2. They are not the same. Biblical submission implies order/position and equality, not obedience. Obedience is a response to a command, and obedience implies the relation of a superior to a subordinate. This is not submission. No wife wants to be (or should be) commanded. No wife wants to be treated as a subordinate. No wife wants to be forced into obedience. It may be that the problem that you see with women not wanting to "submit" has nothing to do with submission at all. It may be that the problem you see has to do with those who think that to submit means to obey. Submission and obedience are not the same, and any person that treats them as the same, will create problems in his/her marriage.

The meaning of the word submission does involve a military term, but there is no "commanding officer" in marriage. There is headship not rulership. Biblical submission is not like the relationship between a general and a private. It is more like two generals, equal in status, strategizing and carrying out plans together. Do you remember that God also calls for mutual submission? If your idea of the commanding officer were correct, how could there ever be mutual submission? Is a general ever required to "submit" to -- or as you define it, obey -- a lesser officer? No. Never forget that God sees husband and wife as equal in status, different in roles and responsibilities. The only Superior in the marital relationship is God.

Read again about the distinction of the husband's headship from Chapter 2 - Zipporah's Sisters:

Ephesians 5:23 tells us that the husband is the head of the wife. In the Greek, there are two different and distinct words that are translated head. The first is arche which is used to denote first in terms of importance and power (we use it in such words as archangel, archbishop, archenemy). It also means ruler. Paul did not use the word arche when he spoke of the husband being the head. This lets us know that in God's eyes, the husband is not first in terms of importance and power, and he is not the ruler of his wife.

Instead of the word arche Paul used the word kephale (pronounced kef-ah-LAY). This word means head as in the part of one's body; it was also used to mean foremost in terms of position. It was never used to mean leader or boss or chief or ruler. Kephale is also a military term that means one who leads, but not in the sense of director. A director sits back and gives instructions, commands or tasks for someone else to follow or carry out, but does not get fully involved or lead in the doing of those things. A husband who functions as a director is not fulfilling the biblical mandate of submission. The husband must be the kephale -- one who goes before the troops -- not someone who orders the troops from a safe distance. The kephale is the leader in the sense of being in the lead, or in military terminology, he is the first one into battle. The husband is not the ruler or the boss or the chief of his wife; he is not first in terms of importance and power; he is not the leader in the sense of one who gives out orders for his wife to follow. The husband is in the lead position. In other words, the husband is to lead by example.

You said that "if two people are agreed, then there is no need for a leader." This is faulty reasoning. If what you are saying is true, why are there pastors? Are they not leaders, and are they not leaders of people who are in agreement with what God has said? You are a believer and your pastor is a believer. You are equal in status before God, but your roles and responsibilities are different. That is why there are pastors. Different roles/functions; same status. In marriage, there should be agreement, otherwise, how can you walk/live together the way God intended. There should be agreement, and there should be headship also.

You said "the purpose [of submission] is for when there is a disagreement, or if [you] make a decision that she [your wife] may not be able to understand (after [you] have done [your] best to explain it)." Again, this is wrong thinking. Submission is not for when there is a disagreement. If there is a disagreement, that is the time to get understanding. If your wife is not in agreement with a decision you feel you must make, your goal should be to make sure you understand why she does not agree. You will miss it if what you are doing when you are "trying your best to explain [your] decision" is really trying to convince her that the decision that you've already made is the right one. You should agree together and then make the decision, not make the decision and then try to agree on it.

What decision would you ever need to make (as a believer correctly applying biblical principles), with which your believing wife (also correctly applying biblical principles) would not come into agreement? Assuming the command to obey God rather than man is not being violated, if there is not agreement, you should wait and pray until there is agreement. God has called us to peace. The decisions you make should come into alignment with what promotes godly peace. If you feel that God is leading you a certain way, and your wife has not come into agreement yet with what God has revealed to you, keep in mind that God knew how your wife would initially respond when He revealed His plan to you and has factored the time necessary for her to come into agreement into the equation. God expects us to "Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace." (Ephesians 4:2-3).

You said, "consider Christ and the Church.  However we look at it, He is our Leader, and we follow Him.  We don't always understand or agree, but part of submission is trusting the leader." God instructs us to get understanding. That means understanding is available, so you're not limited to following without understanding, neither should your wife be forced to follow without understanding. As you suggested, let's consider Christ as our Leader, more specifically, as the role model for husbands in particular. He leads by example. He shares his thoughts, plans, and instructions with us. He respects our will (i.e. our decision-making ability). He is completely obedient to the Father. He loves us unconditionally. He never forces us to obey Him. He has proven Himself to be trustworthy. What about Him--who He is, what He says/does-- would you, as a believer, ever not be able to come into agreement with?

When submission is an issue in marriage, it's because there is a lack of understanding about what true biblical submission is about (as spoken about in Chapter 2 - Zipporah's Sisters). When a wife is functioning under biblical headship, it is a beautiful situation, especially for her. Biblical submission is a place of safety, rest, and harmony. Where did you get the idea that you are in authority over your wife? You are her head, not her ruler. The centurion you mentioned said he was a man under authority... under not in authority. The authority he was recognizing was Christ's authority, not his own. He also spoke of giving commands to his servants (Matthew 8:5-10). Your wife is not your servant, and you are not her authority. You are her head, and you are both under Christ's authority. That means He does the commanding, and you (both) do the following. Leave your wife room to follow you as you follow Christ and submission to you as the head in the marriage will no longer be an issue.

[christianthought]

Good evening!  I really appreciate your response; I was unsure if this forum was still being moderated.  It is really good to talk with you again.

That being said, of course I still disagree with portions of your reasoning.  I almost didn't respond again, because I didn't want to appear to be one of those jerks that beat up other Christians with Bible verses/knowledge. 

[Forum Administrator]

Hi christianthought. Thank you.  I truly appreciate your input. If you have something to share that will help us in our understanding, you are always welcome to share at any time.