Obama and the body of Christ

[gracegirl]

Hello everyone,
This is gonna get reeaal hot, so I'm just going to cut to the chase. I'm really miffed by the overwhelming support from "us" in the church toward the Obama candidacy. Now don't get me wrong I'm proud that we have a Brotha on verge of being the 1st black president. HOWEVER, as a bible believing Christian I can't support a man who's clearly a socialist, Pro-gay, pro-choice etc. that go against God's word.  And McCain isn't the impressive conservative either.  But what frustrates me is that how is it that the body of christ completely ignores these issues that God values?  I've had conversations with black "Christian" folk  who can't  even articulate a policy they favor and why but they're voting for a "brotha" anyway. One fellow believer said to me "Well I don't agree with same sex marriage and abortion blah,blah,blah but I put all that aside because i think it 'll be cool for my son to experience a black president".  Seriously!?!? And I hate to label this this way but it almost borders on hypocrisy, not that I should be surprised because we all can be hypocritical but no  believer is really being honest about why there voting for him The truth of the matter is is that I think we've chosen our pride over our values as believers and that is just as racist as Not voting for Obama cause he's black if not disturbing. Is this the part we've come to  in the word where Jesus says something about sifting? Hmmm...

[Gracious]

Hello gracegirl, 

I'll must say ... that I "like" your fire!  And ... YES!!! ... it "IS" important to be able to articulate one's beliefs when asked ... especially when it comes to monumental history in the making.  By the way .... Have you noticed that right now in this country, there is not one nationally syndicated African American "televised" news medium???  But I digress ... sorry

Back to your topic ...

You've touched upon a lot in your O/P ... soooooooooo .,.. I'll take a few your points one by one ... here's how I see it!

You wrote:

I'm really miffed by the overwhelming support from "us" in the church toward the Obama candidacy. Now don't get me wrong I'm proud that we have a Brotha on verge of being the 1st black president. HOWEVER, as a bible believing Christian I can't support a man who's clearly a socialist, Pro-gay, pro-choice etc. that go against God's word.

O.K. ... let's explore the true facts concerning:
·   What is a Socialist?  A Socialist is an advocate or supporter of socialism.

Soooooo ... errrr .... Ummmm ...What is Socialism?   

Socialism is an economic system in which the production and distribution of goods are controlled substantially by the government rather than by private enterprise, and in which cooperation rather than competition guides economic activity. There are many varieties of socialism. Some socialists tolerate capitalism, as long as the government maintains the dominant influence over the economy; others insist on an abolition of private enterprise. All communists are socialists, but not all socialists are communists.

Question ...

Okaaay ... soooooo ... what are Senator Barack Obama's views concerning this countries economic systems ... regarding the production of & the distribution of goods?  Meaning, does Senator Obama believe that the production & distribution of "goods" should be "solely" controlled by city, state and or federal governmental agencies???  OR  Does Senator Obama &  or his campaign support the United States gov. holding a dominant influence over the economy - ergo, supporting the abolition of private enterprise???

Answer ...

Desiring that our government(s) in this country, govern in a transparent, ethical & cost effective manner - in no way suggests that this Senator is for BIG government.  According to his website ... AND ... his public orations ... he most definitely "does not" agree with these ideas.  I've referenced below, a "url" from his "official website" for your consideration regarding the "truth".

http://obama.senate.gov/issues/good_government_responsible_spending/

Next ...

Concerning your questions of Senator Obama's views on homosexual behavior & a woman's right to choose (Roe vs. Wade) ... again, I have "url'd" the "truth" concerning both his & his campaign's (which are mutually agreed upon) beliefs.

http://obama.senate.gov/speech/051116-remarks_of_sena_2/
http://obama.senate.gov/speech/051110-remarks_of_sena_1/

[Gracious]

Jussss' one mo' tiny ting'

My precious sista',  I hear you ... I see from your words that you are not, nor should you be ... looked at as some kind of a traitor for DARING to challenge this man's beliefs ... Amen?

Earlier, I'd made mention of the medium of television, for this reason ...

For most of our history in this country, our People have been stripped of the TRUTH about who we are & from whence we've come!!!  This was & is a spiritual demonic "Willie Lynch" stain that our People have been forced to perpetuate, even to this very day ... Amen?  Meaning, we have been forced  (in times past) to allow our own rich history in this country ... to be RE-WRITTEN by otha' Peoples.  Such is the case with the American media influence!  You see, we live in a society of ... EEEASY!!!  As in, it is easier to believe what has been  "carefully"  fed to us by media snippets from newspapers, radio sound-bites, & TELEVISION news-clips!  All or most of which, have been "colored" to steer the all-consuming public (most especially us) towards a certain "negative" way of thinking ... particularly when it comes to us!

Skipping all the way down to your last comment concerning "The Wheat & The Tare"  ... Please know that it is our Father in heaven via His Son, who shall do this sifting.


From my heart,

Gracious

[gracegirl]

So sistah Gracious, am I safe to assume your an Obama supporter? Because I've gotten very similiar responses such as yours from Obama supporters..in the church. I'm well aware of what's on his website as well as our  history/struggles as a people.  BUT I'm also aware of what Obama has said in his speeches which are not consistent. I was emailed the article below that I think shed's light on the very concern I have with his inconsistencies.  Farrakhan refers to him as the "messiah"(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OowxMcVTjTE) He has an abundant amount of support from Muslims and radical islam because, out of respect, his father is Muslim. Excerpts from Obama's book lays out all his associations with marxist and the Bill ayers of the world etc. 20 years under black liberation theology. This definitely calls into  question his character and judgement. And explains his socialist positions. He doesn't have to be a communist, his influences are obvious. Unfortunately, the media and it's biases aren't going to scratch the surface on any of this which is what concerns me because my gut tells me that Obama is gonna have everyone duped   .  Oh and if you didn't see the Saddleback conference with Rick Warren, this is where all my redflags came up because there are no teleprompters, no fan fare just honest direct question that concern us "evangelicals" that Obama clearly was not comfortable answering. Check it out. 
http://trevinwax.com/2008/08/17/obama-mccain-with-rick-warren-at-saddleback-forum-video/
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Perspectives/Default.aspx?id=286720

God bless ya Gracious...you know I love your feedback

[sagesong]

Have you asked God who you should vote for?

[David Dupree]

Hi Gracegirl and others.  I like to jump in here because down through the years, I have developed some fire of my own. 

I am thoroughly discouraged by those Bible thumpers (of which I am glad to be one)  who will not prove all things. First of all the "black church" as it were has long been a source of community activism and combination of theology as a basis for civil rights and self reliance.  Just because  this man sat under the "teaching" of a great teacher/preacher/theologian for 20 years does not mean he ascribed to all his thinking..in fact, he said that he did not ascribe to certain things spoken over the pulpit there.  And yet, all that was said by Wright is not attributed to Obama.  What kind of thinking is that?  Obama didn't say it. 
(as an aside, if we are held responsible for all we hear, we are in a whole heap of trouble)  Furthermore, there is nothing in the background of Obama to suggest that he has "acted" in such a way to suggest he espoused the same thoughts as Wright. 

Before you mistake me, let me just make it clear I am pro-Wright.  I have known him for many years.  I make it a point to hear him in person every chance I get because of the profundity of wisdom and provoking of thought provided by him through his unique understanding of the scriptures.   I have been thoroughly strengthened and encouraged through his writings also.  Unfortunately, I only have two of his books. 

Back to the point...I have heard by non-blacks, the complaint that the black church doesn't stick to the scriptures and infuses too much of personal experience. Then of course I have heard that the problem with the "white church" is that their communities are in trouble because they don't know how to relate the scriptures to their life today. 
Whoops...back to the point. 

Does it mean that since there is no directly correlative scripture that things that affect others do not matter?  I don't believe so.  At the same time, there are many scriptures that are overlooked..for example homelessness is another form of jail.  Are we visiting though in that prison? Are we caring for the widows and orphans?  No, we are spending the money protesting and fighting abortion when if more money was put into adoption programs, orphanages and foster programs more persons may change their mind about aborting knowing there is a safe place for the child to go.  What about putting more money into health insurance and access to prenatal care so that persons would change their mind about aborting?

I don't understand how it is okay to fight abortion and also okay to support and authorize the bombing of  villages containing babies, pregnant women, innocent people, just because they are not American.  "Thou shalt not kill" did not come with qualifiers, age limits, nationalities, religious stipulations or the like.

(Another aside...the American press everyday reports on the number of Americans killed or hurt in conflict in the middle east.  What they rarely report is the numbers on non-Americans who get killed..especially those who are non-military. It is like there is no interest if it is not American. Well, I care!!!!)

Another aside...God has not called us to be bigoted or racist, even to those who don't look or believe or act as us.  Therefore, to believe in providing rights for those being discriminated against does not make you pro-gay no more than not providing those rights has done anything to reduce the gay population. 

Another aside...if talking to Ayers is wrong then so was Jesus talking to the Samaritan woman, or Jesus going to Zaccheus house or Jesus talking to the lepers or etc. etc.  We are taught in scripture to agree with your adversary quickly.  you don't agree with him by not talking to him.  It is not a scripture but the old saying says keep your friends close and your enemies closer. 

Jesus told us to go into Judea, Samaria and the uttermost parts of the earth.  That means we cannot take an America for the Americans view only.  The WORLD needs to be saved. Evangelism is stiffled when we don't have open relationships with certain countries in the world.  You don't open doors by being afraid of opening the door.  (Yes, sometimes the uttermost part of the earth is right around the block.  )  (As an aside..how do they ignore the people McCain used to hang around who are serving or have served time behind bars?) 

What I am saying is...let's take the WHOLE counsel of Christ and not "nit pick" those parts that we easily identify with.  As Jesus disciples found out, Jesus had sheep who were not of His fold. 
To those folks who are concerned about the next meal, "give us this day our daily bread" is important.  To those who got a freezer full, they pick on other issues. 

And if we are not going to "go ye into all the world" can't we at least treat the people in our own country right? 

The same ideology that was responsible for the crusades; the same ideology that took the U.S. from the Indians; the same ideology that believed enslaving Africans and stripping them from their homeland was okay; the same ideology that believed in separate, but equal..that same ideology of Nationalism is at work today, busy equating Christianity and American citizenship.  The sad part is that it is equated to "their" ideals of what being an American is AND what being a Christian is.   
(n.b those same folks who wrote that we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal did not include black men in that equation cause we were not considered by many of them to be men.)


This is just for fun, but take this test and see where you stand.  I came out right in the middle, 7 for one candidate and 6 for the other.  :-) 

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/MatchoMatic/fullpage?id=5542139

dd

p.s.  I agree with Sage..the key is the pray and be led by the spirit as what to do with your vote. 

[gracegirl]

Okay well I guess that answers my question..it's about black pride! Since I keep getting the "black history" recap. We didn't get reparations, nor our forty acres and a mule either so lets cut a brotha some slack, put our biblical worldview aside, get a brotha into the presidency(that'll make up 400 years of slavery)  and maybe we can evangelize him. I mean, us christians ain't walking uprightly all the time anyway, I think the lord'll let this one slide

[David Dupree]

No Gracegirl,  for me none of this is about black pride.  It is totally about a Biblical worldview.  But admittedly, to get this worldview, a lot of this  is definitely about ending the notion of white thought is right thought and forwarding the notion that God-thought is right thought. Too long people have "let" themselves be deceived that Eurocentric interpretations and notions are the way things ought to be.  And we need to focus more on "what the Spirit is saying to the Church."  I am about ending lies on all sides and telling truth all around. 

My Bible lets me know that goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life.  But people want to make associations and past deeds-not only of me, but also of family members and associates-follow me all the days of my life.  Yes, I am still Eloise's baby boy.  But I am neither a baby, nor a boy.  When I became a (mature person in Christ) I put away childish things.  That includes condemning others who are new creatures in Christ for what they have done or been accused of in the past.

So just like Jesus didn't bother the woman CAUGHT in adultery, I am not bothering one guy for his association with his neighbor, nor am I bothering another for association with an unrepentant convicted felon (Liddy).  (http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=5861268) 

All I am suggesting is that just as Peter had to acknowledge that when he adopted the view of the gospel going into all the world that some people would not adopt or adapt many of the underlying Jewish customs and feast days, we have to acknowledge that people in other countries (and in the same country for that matter) with other customs do not have to adapt or adopt Eurocentric values, customs, morays or the like to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 

Let me give a simple example.  There are still many countries where many of the people cannot read or write.  Therefore, the Eurocentric model suggests and implies that they are ignorant and immediately denegrates their personal value. (often they use the term illiterate instead) However, quite to the contrary, many of those same people are able to recite gobs and gobs of their history.  They know cures for ailments that are not written or under the Eurocentric guise of scientific.  They have methods and methodologies with significant cogent logical flow based upon their cultural idioms.  They have spices and recipes that create mouth watering delicacies.  But so often their way of doing what they do is discounted because they cannot read or write. 

Love of neighbor as one's self is a commandment.  Again, it is about the whole counsel of God.  We like to take the "counsel" or scriptures and fit them into our culture instead of our culture and fitting it into the scripture.  It is the round peg into the square hole concept.   When you put the round peg into the square hole, something is missing.  You end up with holes where the scripture doesn't line up to your culture.  Those holes are just opportunity for the enemy to step in and mess up stuff.  Conversely, more appropriately would be to put the square peg into the round hole. Something needs to be trimmed for it to fit. You "should" trim off your culture that does not fit the scriptures.

Whoops gotta go get some work done. 

dd

[da2bjeez]

"Again, it is about the whole counsel of God.  We like to take the "counsel" or scriptures and fit them into our culture instead of our culture and fitting it into the scripture. "


I think we are raising up a HOT issue here. I need to understand something here. Are we suppose to fit the culture into the scripture?  I'm kinda confused? I need some clearity. The only thing that comes to my mind Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


Gracegirl you made a good point " maybe we can evangelize him" does he not support a socialism belief (in other words- all religions are one).

[David Dupree]

What came first?  God or culture?

Sure many of us are cultured before we have an encounter with God.  But then we have to be transformed by the renewing of our mind so that we don't think the same way we did prior to coming to Christ. 

The tendency is to rely on I Corinthians 15:46 "The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual."  This is in reference to the account in Gen. 2:7 However, the "natural" man refers to that man before receiving Christ Jesus.  Thereafter receiving Christ normally that untransformed man is called a "carnal" Christian.  Yet, in Genesis 1:26-27, we see that God Created man in His image.  That Created "bara" means to form out of nothing.  (Spirit) Later we see male and female created He them.  That created "asah" really means made or to form out of something.  Therefore, in Genesis 1 we see that the created portion -spirit-man came before the made portion male-man.  After the fall, the strategy of redemption is to return things to the correct alignment so we can get out of the natural to the spiritual. 

So once we get regenerated, we have to transform our thinking out of the mindset of the world, of the natural, of the carnal and put spirit first.   

We are in a situation where there are too many things that do not fit the culture that are being deleted.  For example, prayer in schools is one of those things that culture no longer allowed and was deemed to be against (or not fit) the culture and therefore eliminated. But thank God that the elimination of prayer in schools did not and could not eliminate prayer.   Yet, we live in a culture where we pray IF we have time and tithe IF we have enough left after other things.  That is fitting scripture into culture.  Instead we should keep first things first, by setting aside time to pray and taking tithes off the top -- fitting culture into scripture.       

dd

p.s.  In the book of Acts, the new Christians brought what they had and laid it at the apostles feet for them to determine how best to use it.  That is the way socialism works. 

[gracegirl]

No Gracegirl,  for me none of this is about black pride.  It is totally about a Biblical worldview.  But admittedly, to get this worldview, a lot of this  is definitely about ending the notion of white thought is right thought and forwarding the notion that God-thought is right thought. Too long people have "let" themselves be deceived that Eurocentric interpretations and notions are the way things ought to be.  And we need to focus more on "what the Spirit is saying to the Church."  I am about ending lies on all sides and telling truth all around....  Hmmm..sure it's not about black pride? Cause this is sure starting to sound like the historical, black liberation theological rhetoric to me. But if your fine with a brotha who is clearly Super liberal, pro-gay, pro-choice, a socialist (thank you Da2) that believes ALL religions are the same (which is biblically erroneous), hence a government lead life(which last I checked fell under Communism), than O is your man! And I have prayed, researched, listened(from the primaries, to Saddleback, to this last debate) GREATLY over this sagesong which is how I've come to this revelation.

God Bless you all

[da2bjeez]

Gracegirl!!

We must pray for the church has fallen away from the truth, and many will not recognize the truth even when it is presented to them! The true gospel the apostles preached is no longer really preached- instead health, wealth, feel good gospel. I could go into so much detail but its not the right place. The church is sleeping just as the disciples did when Christ asked them to watch will he went to pray, he came back to find them sleeping, not watching!!!! Read between the lines.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we declare to you by the Lord's [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him [Hermann Cremer, Biblico-Theological Lexicon of New Testament Greek.] in death].




May

[da2bjeez]

Here is just a some iinformation to think about!!!



Mark 8:15 And He was giving orders to them, saying, "Watch out! Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod."

In this passage, Jesus is telling his followers to beware of the combined leaven of the Pharisees, which represents the church and Herod which represents the state or government.  Jesus was essentially warning against the corruption of politics mixing with the gospel message.  Leaven represents corruption and when you mix the corruption of government with the gospel message you damage it. Herod was corrupt to the core just like many of our politicians today.  He killed children, he mocked Jesus, and he put himself in God's place in the minds and hearts of the people.  Even when Jesus came on the scene, Herod desired to destroy him and his works because he didn't want to share his influence with him.  King Herod attempted to befriend Jesus and pretended to desire to see his miracles and works, but Jesus called him a fox because he knew he was only wanting to appear to like him but was secretly conspiring against him. 

This is happening today.  The politicians that are running for office have infused their immoral doctrines with the flavor of the church and are befriending the church only to destroy the credibility of the church.  Let's look at it this way. Did you ever think that church folks would vote for men that are for abortion?  What kind of church folks vote for men that are for same sex marriages?  What kind of church folks will vote for a man that desires to silence the churches stand against gay right and considers churches too homophobic?  What kind of church folks desire to see a candidate elected so badly that they throw their biblical, moral base out temporarily just to make history?  We have infused politics and religion in America so much so, that the candidates don't fear the church anymore.  They don't fear our stands for truth and righteousness because the leaders of our churches are backing them!  They don't fear the repercussions of going against God because God's men are following them!  God wants to be in control of us so that we can stand before governments and rulers of darkness and proclaim that Jesus is Lord and that they should repent.  Even when Satan took Jesus up on the mountain and showed him the governments of the world and offered them to him, Jesus didn't want them. and rebuked the devil for trying to get him to be apart of his governments!  This tells us that Satan had dominion over the worlds governments because he was able to offer them to Christ.  Satan took the dominion from man in the garden and is using it to create his 1 World Government ruled by the antichrist. But we are so excited about seeing the first black man or the first woman elected, that we are missing the picture that is being drawn.  The church is backing itself into a corner and we have begun to support people that are sly like foxes.  We are backing candidates that claim Christianity only to gain the churches votes but their policy's are antichrist.  And remember, there is a big difference in praying for our political leaders vs. standing for our political leaders.  People of God, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod. 

Suggested Reading: Luke 4:8, Matt. 14:1, Luke 13:32, Dan. 11:36

©2008 G. Craige Lewis  All Rights Reserved

[Forum Administrator]

I'll quickly jump in to weigh in on this subject. I am committed to the position of seeking God's mind on who to vote for. I am not looking at either candidate's position on issues, or their past voting record, or their party, or any other superficial thing. When Samuel went to anoint a king (for the second time) he was selecting based on what his senses were telling him and would have made the wrong choice had he not listened to what God had to say about it. We are in this world, but we have a different way of doing things. We walk by faith, not by sight/sensory perception. God only knows the heart and He can, by His Spirit, reveal to us all the information we need in order to make the right choice. Didn't He say in all our ways we should acknowledge Him and He would direct our paths? That includes our selection of a president also. We are not ignoring issues, but we (the Church) do not approach/deal with issues the same way the world does. I encourage all of us to seek God's face on this matter and get His heart on it. There is someone that He wants to rule whose heart will be in His hand, and only He knows which of the candidate's hearts will be most pliable. We must press into God's presence through prayer and find out who that person is. Then be it popular or unpopular in the world's eyes, (or even as this hot subject reveals, in some believers' eyes) we must have the courage to vote not according to Democrat/Republican, or McCain/Obama or even issues, but according to God's desire on the matter.

[sagesong]

I agree with Forum Administrator.

God considers all things beyond what we can even fathom.  Surrend to his will for leadership of our country.

As an aside, some points of clarity.

We don't need to evangelize Obama as he is already a confessed Christian.  I don't agree with all of Obama's poltical views, but I won't be so bold as to declare he isn't a Christian just because I don't agree with his every opinion.  He says he is saved by grace through Jesus Christ.

Also, socialism is not about religious beliefs, but a social and economic structure.  Socialism is to capitalism as hundism is to scientology.

Be prayerful, then vote in peace knowing no matter the outcome, God is in control.