What does tithing have to do with relationships?

[Forum Administrator]

Is tithing (or not tithing) an important issue when it comes to relationships?

What do you think?

[abundant]

Of course tithing is.  Tithing has to be discussed and done so we won't rob God.  If it's not done in the relationship it won't work.  Coming from a marriage where my husband thought I should'nt be "giving all my money to the church" little did he know that's the only thing that sustained us.  I just believe that my obediance to tithe has kept me.  Tithing is an obediance issue not a money issue.

[grace]

I believe that is very important, that conversation should be had along with all financial matters. I believe the two contemplating marriage should do a study on tithing to have true understanding of what it is to tithe and why and even going so far as deciding how much they will tithe as a couple, if beyond the 10% because one believers may be content with giving the minimum figuring hey I did my part, wheras their potential partner may be accustomed to going above and beyond what's required based on their level of faith. Figuring it should be a given that you support my desire to give more.

Another scenerio may be of that person who gives way too much in the sense of being down right foolish. Thinking God is pleased with that then not having enough to take care of the bills and so forth and that future mate most likely won't appreciate sitting in the dark trying to convince you that it ain't the enemy who cut the lights off, it's the lack of money going towards those bills.

So in a nutshell, yes it's extremly important to be on one accord in this area.

[KJSiv]

i do feel giving is important and should be discussed. i dont understand why one person said "we will be robbing God" nor do i understand why you say giving 10% is the minimum. what do you base this on?

                                     seeking discussion...  peace

if you think the grass is greener on the other side, you probably arent taking care of your own grass!

[Forum Administrator]

i do feel giving is important and should be discussed. i dont understand why one person said "we will be robbing God" nor do i understand why you say giving 10% is the minimum. what do you base this on?

                                     seeking discussion...  peace

if you think the grass is greener on the other side, you probably arent taking care of your own grass!

Hi KJSiv. One of the most common references to tithing is Malachi 3:7-12 (specifically verse 8 ). The word 'tithe' literally means one tenth, that's where the 10% comes from. There are blessings promised to those who tithe and curses follow those who don't, as is always the case with disobedience.

If we believe that the earth is the Lord's and everything in it, and that it is God who gives us the strength to work, then really we are stewards over God's wealth. If you look at it in that way, God is being extremely generous in allowing us to keep up to 90% of His wealth.

Tithing demonstrates our trust in, and obedience to, God. It's really not about the money. The tithe is a symbolic act that is used to demonstrate our willingness to please God (which ultimately results in blessings for us). God does not want us giving but wishing in our hearts that we didn't have to. Neither does He want us to give because we feel forced. (See 2 Corinthians 9:6-8.) He wants us to give willingly out of love and gratitude to Him.

We generally have the wrong perspective of tithing. We look at it as us giving back to God. Really, it's God giving to us. He is sharing His wealth with us. To use a simple example, it's like God having a bag of potato chips and he says to us, reach your hand in and take out 90% of the chips. Some will reach in and keep exactly 90%. Some will reach in and keep less than 90% leaving more of the chips in the bag. Some reach in and take all the chips leaving nothing for God in the bag. Still others will not reach in at all!    I don't know about you, but if a Person of unlimited wealth and resources (i.e. God) tells me to reach in the bag, I'm reaching in the bag!  

[KJSiv]

i am familiar w/ all the scriptures dealing w/ tithing and that it means a tenth. i do not believe it is what we are required to give now though. the same scripture you quoted from 2 Cor. 9 also says, "each should give what he has decided in his heart to give." that doesnt sound like tithing to me. actually, in the NT, chapters 8 & 9 is the longest discourse on the issue and tithing is no where to be found. i used to tithe blindly. just doing it b/c everyone taught it. but as i matured and started to search things on my own, i feel it is an OT teaching that we are not bound by today. again please dont think i just went off and didnt feel like giving anymore, b/c my wife and i still give, but not just for the sake of it.

i'll share some of the issues that i didnt think were in scripture:
1] if those that tithe are blessed and those that dont are cursed(as people teach from Malachi) and this is said to be truth, then it has to happen as such. no exceptions! well i know several who tithe, sometimes blindly, and are not what we would call "blessed". also how is blessed defined? arent we all blessed? i mean right now, i am listening to my children "singing" (they are ages 4,2,1) about Lord knows what, but every once in a while you hear them say Jesus! sweet!!!! is blessed defined by the amount of "stuff" we have? or is it a non-tangible? or maybe all. the thing is there are people who could attest to all of these. there are also people who tithe and dont experience any! to say one will be blessed for tithing sounds like a "formula" for nice life. again i dont think happiness is found in formulas. again we know people who experience "good and bad" in life whether or not they tithe. now im NOT saying believers are not called to give at all, but i do not agree w/ a minimum. i believe in grace giving as Paul spoke of in 2 Cor 8:7. but again in v. 8 Paul says he's not commanding it. but saying there is a minimun is infact a commandment.
2] if tithing is an OT practice and we died to the law, how is it still applicable today? Hebrews 8 speaks beautifully of the NEW COVENANT to come. v.10 reads"... i will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. i will be their God and they will be my people." wow that speaks to me loudly!! making me unbelievably grateful. v.13 says "By calling this covenant 'new', he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear."
3] one of the first issues i had w/ the teaching of tithing, is this; if one does not tithe it is taught he/she will be cursed.... cursed? in Gal. 3:12-13 is very interesting. "the law is NOT based on faith; on the contrary, 'the man who does these things will live by them.' Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." well what im getting at is, how can i be re-cursed if Christ became a curse for me? v.25 says "now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."

i have others but this post is running pretty long. are you still awake? anyway, i await your reply. i dont mind sharing my other "issues" if you want, maybe later.

                          thank you for your time


all the world lives in two tents: content and discontent

[Forum Administrator]

The law is not done away with because Christ came; it is illuminated. The passage you have referred to in Galatians 3:12-13 in context is dealing with the incorrect belief that the law (or works) can save you.  In the Old Testament a sacrifice was required in order to atone for sin, but when Christ came, He became the ultimate sacrifice and redeemed us from the curse of sin, which is eternal separation from God. The Galatians (and we) are being taught that it is through faith in the finished work of Christ that we are saved, and not through works (of the law). The curse of the law was that there was no lasting atonement for sin, no matter how many bulls or lambs were slaughtered. Christ has redeemed us from that curse because he atoned for our sins once and for all becoming the ultimate and perfect sacrifice. Christ Himself said that He did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill them (Matthew 5:17). The law is designed to demonstrate our need for, and to lead us to, Christ (Galatians 3:21-25).

Just as you know that blessings come in various forms, curses do also. The greatest curse is to be separated for an eternity from God. As believers in the atonement of Christ, we know that eternal separation from God is a curse we no longer have to worry about. The relationship has been established. However, we also know that our sin separates us from Him in the sense that our fellowship with Him is disrupted. Even though we have a relationship with God--He is our Heavenly Father--disobedience to God will separate or disrupt our fellowship with Him. That is why we need to confess our sins, even as believers so that we can restore our fellowship with Him.

Now that we are no longer under the law, more is required of us, not less. Under the law, we would have been required to give a lamb, or bird or bull as sacrifices. Under the New Testament (or grace) we are required to give our very bodies as living sacrifices... and that is the least that we can do (Romans 12:1). You get the picture? It's more not less that is required. We have greater responsibility because we have greater understanding. As you have referred to the passage in 2 Corinthians 8:7, now, because of what we know and what Christ has done for us, we give out of love not duty. We build on what we know of the law, and if 1/10th is what was referred to under the law, under grace we should be striving to do even more, not less.

[KJSiv]

some thoughts and questions:

1.] what does Hebrews 8:1-13 mean to you?
2.] how do you explain not adhering to the WHOLE law then. why is tithing the only one the church still holds on to?
3.] what other "curses" are we succeptible to?
4.] i am personally still unsure why people say our fellowship is disrupted when we sin. and what are the ramifications of our fellowship being disrupted? what scriptures is this based on?
5.] also, how do you define "abundantly blessed"? if one does not tithe and receives blessing, how can this be? why are there folks who tithe regularly and dont see the results of this "formula".  again, if tithing is a biblical truth, then there are no exceptions. similarily, if we say Christ is the way of salvation,(a biblical truth) then there are no exceptions right?

anyway, i would appreciate your response to these questions... i tried to shorten it up!

                                             in Christ

the pessimist has a card in wallet which reads, "in case of accident, im not surprised!"  

[Forum Administrator]

some thoughts and questions:

1.] what does Hebrews 8:1-13 mean to you?
2.] how do you explain not adhering to the WHOLE law then. why is tithing the only one the church still holds on to?
3.] what other "curses" are we succeptible to?
4.] i am personally still unsure why people say our fellowship is disrupted when we sin. and what are the ramifications of our fellowship being disrupted? what scriptures is this based on?
5.] also, how do you define "abundantly blessed"? if one does not tithe and receives blessing, how can this be? why are there folks who tithe regularly and dont see the results of this "formula".  again, if tithing is a biblical truth, then there are no exceptions. similarily, if we say Christ is the way of salvation,(a biblical truth) then there are no exceptions right?

anyway, i would appreciate your response to these questions... i tried to shorten it up!

                                             in Christ

the pessimist has a card in wallet which reads, "in case of accident, im not surprised!"  

Hi KJSiv. It's late, so I'll be brief.
1. Hebrews 8:1-13 demonstrates that the priesthood of Christ is superior to the levitical priesthood.
2. As I said before, the law has not been done away with, it has been illuminated. For example, we are still expected to honor our father and mother. That is just one example of an Old Testament law that we are still expected to honor. We are no longer expected to adhere to the law as a means of atonement or being made right with God.
3. We are susceptible to any consequence of disobedience to God. (For one example, check out 1 Corinthians 11:23-32)
4. Sin separates us from God. I would recommend reading the book of 1 John to see the relationship between sin and fellowship.
5. 'Abundantly' blessed means to be blessed a lot. The bible says that God rains on both the just and the unjust. What can I say: God is good! However, that does not negate the fact that there will be unpleasant consequences for those who do not tithe (or do what God commands us to do), and they will not experience the fullness of blessings that they could receive if they did tithe. This is what God has said. You either believe what He says, or you don't. If a person is tithing according to God's requirements, they will be blessed according to what His word says. It is not for us to determine how that blessing will manifest itself (outside of any specific result that God has promised). If a tither is experiencing other difficulties, then they can rule out not tithing as a cause. Christ is the way of salvation. No exceptions.  

[KJSiv]

man, i thought i was an owl! j/k.

i will also be brief:
1.] in Hebrews 8:13 it says the covenant now is "new". making the first one obsolete. what do you make of this verse?

2.] wouldnt you say that honoring our parents is infact a NT theme.(Eph. 6) what i was getting at is ALL the laws concerning regulations for worship,(Hebrews 9 deals w/ this) eating regulations, or what about a couple who was not  to have sex during her menstrual cycle? and the list goes on and on. thats what i was getting at in saying, how do people justify tithing but not the whole law?

3.] are consequences synonomous w/ curses, and what is this based on?

4.] which part of 1 John talks about separation? again, what do you say happens if fellowship is broken? is there a "number" of sins that equate broken fellowship?

5.] i have not "tithed" in 5 years. my wife and i (and 3 kids) could attest to being blessed... abundantly! my uncle on the other hand, is far from it. thats what he says! again if this is a biblical promise, this CANNOT happen! are you saying when "bad things" happen its b/c we did something wrong?

anyway, i appreciate your time, anyone else out there have some thoughts?

                                 in Christ

the greatest remedy for anger... delay

[grace]

Hello KJSiv,

I'll try to give a real quick answer as not to speak over what the administrator already laid out because I agree 100%.... but be patient cause I ain't a quick answer kinda gal Oh  And I'm assuming this was referring to my comments regarding 10% and minimum, let me start by saying that I was setting up different scenerios in my post, based on the original question, not suggesting that people get into a repetitive giving of 10% because they think it's required of them in that sense. So I do understand what you are saying

Yet even still, in my personal walk I still believe in tithing 10% yes but because  the law is in my heart, not out of a ritual or robotics, so I know not to expect anything when I give but I do expect an outcome when I don't based on what happens when I don't. But in regards to keeping the law, if you go up a few verses in Hebrews to Hebrews 8:10... (referring to your last post,)  "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people"

So it's as Alethea stated, the laws does not become obsolete it becomes internal, we have the inward ability to keep the laws as new testament believers and we also have the holy spirit to convict us when we don't keep the laws, we have forgiveness the second we confess to sinning against God because we didn't keep the laws, we can ask him to help us to keep his laws and so on but we still keep the laws as new testament believers and when we don't we will suffer. And not because God is looking down at us wanting to come at us for what but because God is the same today yesterday and forever more so his righteousness is still his righteousness and will always do what it set out to do, and sin will always do what it sets out to do... Like you can have sex and repent and have the lord forgive, but that won't prevent aids or the scars that need to be healed by partaking in that sin. Or even you may have been stoned to death for adultery in OT, being a NT beleiver you won't be physically killed for the act but you will die spiritually until you get that area right with God. So again using those things as an example.

But back to tithing, in my personal walk I didn't tithe for a long time, not until I became convicted about tithing I'm not one who can just read the bible and say well I gotta do this because the word says it no if I don't understand something or disagree or it just don't sit right  pray about it so that's what I did and still do in my walk or could be something I don't realize I'm doing, then I'll get convicted and taught about it.  

By me not being raised in the church per se tithing to me was foreign and seen as many of the world see it the church trying to take folks money so when I got saved and the lord say I was ready to receive that lesson, I was given a biblical lesson on tithing as lead by the holy spirit not someone telling me this, and I was also shown the pratical reasons why tithing is needed aside from being obedient to the word of God, but where the money goes, again all holy spirit led not someone in my face saying look sis you haven't been giving like you need to. But at my church we are given an account of every penny spent.  How much funds are left and if we are increasing or decreasing. So when I don't tithe as I should and hear a report that the money is decreasing, which happens only at the church meeting not during collection We are never forced to give at any level but when it's reported that the funding is decreasing because the church isn't giving that's a slap in my face. I feel the same as when I don't pay a bill on time, and end up with equal results, something won't get done by my not doing what I was suppose to do and I suffer for that fact. If I don't pay my water bill, I don't get water... So that was my personal conviction when it comes to giving not even so much in the getting or following of the law, it's the practical reasons as to why we do what is required as well.

And with all i said I still wanna say more But I have to run

[KJSiv]

hey faith 215. i am also long winded, but sometimes i dont have as much time as i would like. i will try to keep this short and to the point.

1.] by saying you tithe b/c the law is in your heart is still the law. thats why i asked the adm. why people dont follow the WHOLE law then? for example, here are some scriptures from Leviticus 19: v.4 talks about turning to idols(NT theme), v.11 deals w/ stealing, lying, and deceiving (all NT themes) right? so would you say "mating two kinds of animals is a sin?"(v.19). or do you make sure your clothes arent woven of two kinds of materials? (later in v.19). and as i said earlier, the list goes on and on. so my question is why is tithing still taught as a commandement, rule, obedience, basically a formula?

2.] what happens when you dont tithe? is this outcome for everyone or just you? if give based on Malachi 3, then why dont you expect anything when you give?

3.] i feel the scripture in Heb.8:10 is a reference to the Holy Spirit. if it was the same law then v. 6-9 would be pointless! they show the fact that Jesus' covenant  is SUPERIOR to Moses'. it is also referred to as the "OLD ONE." please read these verses.

4.] doesnt v.13 say the law IS obsolete?

5.] how can you die spiritually as a believer? are you saying when a believer sins they die spiritually? please give me a verse? back to following the whole law, why arent people stoned for adultery today?

well i guess this isnt too long, but like you i still have more to say. i havent shared what my wife and i do. again, we give but dont punch in 10% in a calculator to "find out" how much is "required".


                                         in Christ

when your done changing... your done!

[grace]

KJSiv,

Give me a day to get back at you because I want to make my point as clear as possible without getting too wordy and to do that I have to have a moment to sit down and edit self

[KJSiv]

take your time, make it good!

a Christian is one who makes it easier for others to believe in God!

[grace]

1.] by saying you tithe b/c the law is in your heart is still the law.  

But I say that as in accordance to Hebrews 8:10, not in just saying it, also OT and NT are married so I also say this as according to psalm 119:11....also with the mind of Christ being the word...john 1:1 not seperate from that.

thats why i asked the adm. why people dont follow the WHOLE law then? for example, here are some scriptures from Leviticus 19: v.4 talks about turning to idols(NT theme), v.11 deals w/ stealing, lying, and deceiving (all NT themes) right? so would you say "mating two kinds of animals is a sin?"(v.19). or do you make sure your clothes arent woven of two kinds of materials? (later in v.19). and as i said earlier, the list goes on and on. so my question is why is tithing still taught as a commandement, rule, obedience, basically a formula?

Dunno cause I didn't learn it as a formula But first off let's backtrack regarding the law, it was given to magnify sin against the background of Gods Grace Romans 7:7-11, Galatians 3:19-29 so yes in that respect some laws become null and void because it did what it set out to do, which was to show man their total depravity and need of God's grace because it would be impossible to please him with works in regards to the specific laws, if I were to spend time making sure all of the fabrics in my clothes were in compliance with the law, then I'd waste most of my days in that which would put me back in bondage of the law, and also take away time that would be spent ministering the gospel, whereas grace tells me it's more important to spend my time speaking the gospel to the unbeliever and reprent for sins daily and because charity covers a multitude of sins 1 peter 4:8.... I'm covered when I repent of my known sins and unknown sins...if I do so with a pure heart, and as stated in my last post my commitment to tithing is based on conviction not trying to follow the law, therefore it isn't a chore for me to do so... when I do it in the spirit, so only time it is a chore for me to do so is when I take my eyes off of God and onto me, which only shows a lack of faith in God say for instance I'm short on cash, that shows I was careless with my funds in some area, then the money I do have to give, I don't want to put in the plate because It will only leave me with a few dollars for the week, that further shows a lack of faith that God will provide all of my needs, and I'm relying on those couple dollars that I may not need to use, becomes my god of that moment.

2.] what happens when you dont tithe?  is this outcome for everyone or just you?

Depends on their conviction and level of faith, yet in terms of a curse ignorance doesn't keep that thing from coming to pass for instance though christ died for me, I still had my child in pain due to the curse from the original sin and we still work to live in this society, I now am free in knowing why that is and because of Christ I even have joy in the knowing because it just make the word that much more alive to me.

If give based on Malachi 3, then why dont you expect anything when you give?

I'm blessed when I receive, just saying  I don't look for anything for example when I became convicted regarding tithing the lord sent several people into my life afterwards, that had the same struggle regarding going to church and "making the pastors pockets phat", and in that I don't beat them and tell them they must do this because they'll rob God. I do speak out of my personal testimony which shows the person how the lord answered my concern, also shows that the money being placed in the collection plate isn't to make the pastor rich because I have an account of every penny when we come together to discuss the finances... and that doesn't happen in every church but the key is in having that personal relationship, I now have under the new covenant through christ. I'm judge by what goes on in my heart oppose to what I do "religiously" so when my heart said I will not give because I don't want to feed man and his greed, the lord showed me that the church I placed you in serves me so when you give you give to me... so he made the word live in my heart regarding that matter, where I'm not bound by a law that says I must give 10%.... with all that has been done for me how can I not at least give 10% of what the lord has given to me....not about counting numbers And he also showed me grace in revealing the truth in an area I was ignorant in, which I extend when talking to someone unchurched or hardened due to a church experience. I'd never sit in someones face and say you betta give the lord 10% I'd teach the word in accordance to how it was revealed to me with the listener and their true need in mind.
 
3.] i feel the scripture in Heb.8:10 is a reference to the Holy Spirit.

Exactly

if it was the same law then v. 6-9 would be pointless! they show the fact that Jesus' covenant  is SUPERIOR to Moses'. it is also referred to as the "OLD ONE." please read these verses.

Yes the covenant is superior, the laws are a seperate entity it's how we now live in relation to the law, if not this would contridict what christ says in Matthew 5:17-19
 
4.] doesnt v.13 say the law IS obsolete?
No it says the covenant is obsolete as in I don't have to have a human priest stand before God on behalf of my sins, I can come bodly unto the throne of grace...hebrews 4:16
 
5.] how can you die spiritually as a believer? are you saying when a believer sins they die spiritually? please give me a verse?

I'll have to deal with this as a seperate issue for a seperate day, I'll shoot for tomorrw

back to following the whole law, why arent people stoned for adultery today?

Because when christ died, he died for all sin therefore you do not ritualistically follow the law when you are saved, yet the wages of sin is still death if you choose to walk in that sin you will experience death, if not physical death spiritual death , again I'll get into that another day but back to the topic of adultery, if we look at john 8:1-11 regarding the Pharasees and the woman who committed adultery.... Christ got with the pharasees because they wanted to punish the woman using the law, which shows they haven't quite gotten the fact that the laws should point to their own sins....actually they knew also another topic, but what a lot of people like to overlook regarding this subject is the fact that Christ still dealt with the womans sin by commanding her to go and sin no more. I'm confident that this woman did not go off and commit this sin again because Christ convicted her of that sin, not simply in following a commandment but being convicted by the living word literally

Think that's it