Did Jesus really mean this, literally?

[David Dupree]

Sage & Gracious: 

Thanks for this thread as you both strive to "walk on water!"  I enjoyed reading it as I am also striving to walk on water. :-)

  I don't struggle with the text.  I believe that it is clear.  (at least relatively) I do struggle with its application in my life. hahaha   In my other profession, I have had many opportunities not only to read court opinions involving church mess, but also to sit in on cases, and even to assist a church or two in resolving legal issues in the courts.  It of course is a shame when stuff like that happens, but it does...usually started by someone who does not abide by or follow that scripture. 

  As I have understood it, that reference applies to us as to the taking of "believers" to court.  If that is true, then the next question becomes "who is a believer?"  Are those clients of mine who I met in church and signed on the bottom line to pay as I represented them in court, resolved their issue(s) favorably and now have not paid on their bill in over a year real believers?  Well, thus far they aren't acting like it.  And thus far I have not taken them to court...but I need my cheese!!!  hahaha  (okay, didn't mean to vent, but wanted to assist in making a point.)  I do not plan on taking them to court at all.  I do realize that God is my source.   

  Anyway, back to the issue at hand,  there is a time for "righteous indignation."  There is a time to be angry and "sin not."     

  (whoops...I have been interrupted with other things over the last 1.5hours and have not been able to get back to my response. And I have to go now.  Will post this and hopefully finish later.)

ddupree

 

[sagesong]

Our Father spoke these words to me Friday night as I was driving home from church.  I want you to know just how important forgiveness is.

Forgive them father, for they know not what they do.

Matthew 6:12 And for give us our debts as   we forgive our debtors.  Emphasis added.    As -- while, to the same degree, with the same measure.   We are bound to our enemies, to those you wrong us, to them that despitefully use us.  God forgives us as, while, to the same degree, with the same measure, that we forgive them. 

Matthew 6:14-15, Mark 11:25 
For if you forgive men their trespasses, you heavenly Father will also forgive you.  But, if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. 

This message is seen again in the parable of the unforgiving servant.  He owed his master much 10,000 talents.   This is a grand figure the Matthew Henry commentary calls is a king's ransom or a kingdom's subsidy. 

Like the servant we are unable to pay the debt owed for our sins.  We in ourselves are insufficient.  People are fond of saying, it should have been me, beaten, battered, bruised, pierced,  and crucified.   But, truth is, it would have been meaningless, had it been you.  We are insufficient to pay the price. 

Yet, despite all that was owed, his master forgave it all.  Every sin we commit is a debt to God, our master.  He has forgiven it all.  He has cast them into the see of forgetfulness.  He has separated us from them as far as the east is for the west.  We are forgiven, washed clean, pure as snow. 

This kind of forgiveness should produce a grateful heart.  Yet, as the parable unfolds, we see the servant's heart toward his master's compassion.  When a small debt is owed him, 100 pence.  He demands repayment in full, to the point of being unmerciful and cruel.   

How can a man that was just forgiven so much, hold another to such a measily debt.  Yet, we do it every day.  As the parable ends, the unforgiving servant is delievered to his tormentors unil his own debt was repaid.

As we forgive other, God will forgive us. Yet, if we do not forgive other, he will hold us accountable for our own debts.

But this forgiveness thing, it so much bigger than us.  It is about the kingdom of God.  We have been given the power to forgive sin on Earth.  John 20:23 -- If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them, if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.    What is loosed on Earth is loosed in Heaven.  What is bound on Earth is bound in Heaven.   Many cannot see past their own sins.  They cannot see God's outstretched hand, because they are so bound and burdened by their past or present sin. 

Yet, here God is saying we -- his sons and his daughters have the power to forgive them their sins -- to recieve them in love -- keeping  no record of wrong.  If we are men and women after his own heart we will love what God love as God loves. 

God loves his world -- this foul, faithless, sin-filled, some say sin-obsessed world.  This one right here.  This rank, rotten, wretched world. Filled with liars, theives, gossips, murders, rapists, child molesters.  God so loved this world that he gave his only begotten son.   

As a woman after God's own heart, I will love this world and forgive them their sin, as our Father has forgiven me mine.  Because, it is not about me or my rights, but about him and his kingdom and winning souls. 

[Gracious]

FORGIVENESS

You know Sage,

That word is really what we struggle with & against (in this life) isn't it?  That word, appears to be what separates us from our Protection - our Deity isn't it?  Because THAT word, when in divine operation supernaturally diminishes "self" & increases the Greater HE that is within us.  That word seems to only work for our betterment when we walk in it.  Not from a carnal understanding (e.g. I'm tired of carrying this bitter anger towards others ... so maybe if I "SAY" or "ACT" like it doesn't bother me - it won't!!!) but from a spiritual direction (e.g. GOD please LOOSE from me, whatever it is that separates me from you -please LOOSE from me whatever it is that is preventing me from being the "me" that YOU have design for me to be ... the "me" that brings peace, love & joy to others AND myself!!!)

For (or) Fore - Giveness

Ok Holy Ghost ... Let us receive THIS "ACTION" WORD, in it's parts ... Amen?

When we look at the 1st three letters of this word, beginning with FOR or F-O-R-E it connotes the BEGINNING of a thing - not yet experienced.  To "foreknow" (to know a thing without the benefit of being told, through earthen methods), to "forth-tell" (to prophesy - to speak of things that have not yet happened), to "forewarn" (to admonish the behavior of another BEFORE  the action has taken place) etc.

I'm led to believe that in order to grasp the true meaning of this word, we must first position - posture our spirits.  Posture our spirits to RECEIVE spiritual things from heaven, that have NOT YET come to pass!!!   

If we want FORGIVENESS to permeate generously from within us, we must 1st surrender to HIS PROCESS.  And I'm led that ALL of us (at some point) lose our directional footing (spiritually) along life's way, causing us a temporary "disconnect", from our GOD.

How then, do we "re-connect" with HIM?

Perhaps, through meditation (re-flecting) upon on our PURPOSE - why we are here - in THIS time, in THIS relationship, on THIS job, worshipping at THIS church, in THIS family ... etc, will re-affirm our connection?  Because should we become able to answer at least one of THOSE questions, perhaps PURPOSE, as in "our PURPOSE" for being here on THIS earth, may be more clear?   Once we have some idea of our individual or collective purpose (via HIS Inspiration - The Holy Bible WITH The Holy Ghost), then PERSPECTIVE as seen through GOD's eyes, may be the focal point ... AND ... it is THEN that perhaps The Holy Spirit could begin to extract the bitterness & anger that provides a spiritual disconnect from HIM ... from our hearts. And we may be able to GIVE freely again?

Sage, maybe I've taken this in a whole- nutha' direction from what you'd intended?  It's just that, when reading the script's you had offered, along with the life application of them ... the above is what flooded my spirit!           

Selah!!!

Gracious

[sagesong]

Gracious,

I honestly hadn't intended any direction.  But, I'll tell you this.  I am being tried right now.  I am struggle to walk in this word in a situation where it would seem wholy impossible to forgive.   

My heart has been profoundly broken.  I am/was stuck in how to walk in the word that God has spoken to me even before the thing was known to me.  I will only tell you that it involves my two year old daughter.  Someone hurt her. 

I only tell you that so that you may have some understanding of my struggle. 

I know God is telling me -- in order to grasp the true meaning of this word, we must first position - posture our spirits.  If we want FORGIVENESS to permeate generously from within us, we must 1st surrender to HIS PROCESS.

Help me Holy Ghost,  I cannot do this alone. 

[Gracious]

My Sister, 

Oh Lord!! I am so sorry to hear about your daughter ... & she's only a baby  too!  That anyone would raise one hand to harm her ... surely they will be harmed 100 times worse!!! Because children are so precious to our GOD!!!

And I admire your strength!!! Please never doubt that GOD is with you ... even through this ... you & your precious daughter remain very special to HIM!!!

Do you TRUST the walk of your Pastor?  Are you led that he may help you?

Loving & praying for your strength!!!


Gracious

[Gracious]

My Sister Sage,

Another reason that I believe that people find it soooooo hard to FORGIVE, is that  this word is synonymous with being gullible - weak - or with being a "doormat" ... Amen?  This is NOT true!!!

FORGIVENESS is not for whimps, for the faint at heart, or for gullible doormats!!!

This word involves Herculean STRENGTH!!!  It involves KNOWING (without earthen understanding) who YOU ARE AND YOUR PURPOSE!!!  And from what you'd shared in your last post ... GOD is soooooo close to you right now!!!

Maybe I didn't say this right ... but concentrating on forgiveness (I don't believe) is the most important thing.  The most important thing is our connection with GOD & HE will release ALL that needs to go from us ... Amen?

I think your heart knows this already tho' ...  Thank you JESUS!!!

Thank you FATHER and please hold both Sage & her daughter "close & safe" to YOU!!!  Amen & Amen

[sagesong]

Thank you for your words of encouragement and strength.  I did understand what you meant. Not concentrating on forgiveness, but on my connection with God. 

I know that is the only way.  There is no other way, because everything in me is screaming and crying out for murder and revenge.  In myself I want to curse and d**n the one who hurt her.