Faith?

[Breathedonme]

Hi!

I'm not sure where this question should be posted, so here it is!   

Can someone help me?  The Word says that we are all given a measure of faith.  The Bible also says that of the gifts of the Spirit (e.g., healing, prophesy), there is a gift of faith. 

If I don't match up to another's level of faith, does that mean that I don't have faith?


Please help me.

[sagesong]

I have often been vexed by this issue myself.   I do believe in the principle of reaping and sowing, because it is God's principle.  However, I agree that it seems to be more prevalent in messages today and more often used in relationship to finances.  For instance, many minister often use Luke 6:38 "Give and it will be given to you.  A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap . . . " during offering time.  However, this verse of scripture is actually talking about forgiveness and mercy toward someone in their weakness. Read Luke 6:37-42 and reference Matthew 7: 1-5. 

I would suggest that you pray about your internal conflict and ask God to give you guideance, peace and understanding.  Then pray for your Pastor.  They are men of flesh and vice like the rest of us who don't walk in the spirit 24/7.

I know that when God blesses he adds no sorrow to it.  If you have to work a second job to afford  the "blessing"  it may not be from God.  Remember, the enemy can provide what looks like a blessing. 

What is the purpose of sowing your entire paycheck?  Whether or not it is a test of faith really depends on your financial situation.  Right now I could afford to give my entire paycheck.  I am married, my husband makes enough money to pay the bills on his salary alone.  Also, we have enough savings, to replace it.  Is that faith?

There was a time, however, when simply tithing was more a test of faith than giving my entire paycheck would be today.  My expenses were just about equal to my income.  I had to trust God to fill in the gap after I tithed.

Good knows your financial situation and He alone knows your heart.   I would suggest for now until  God says otherwise to give what you feel comfortable giving.  Each person should give what he has decided in his heart to give and not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 2 Corinthians 9:7. 

I am not of the belief that as Christian we should be poor.  Still, I think we need to be careful when when we apply this principle to finances, because we can easily slip into seeking God for the fishes and loaves and not for the Kingdom's sake.  We are not suppose to store up treasue for ourselves on Earth for those treasures may take the place of God in our hearts Matthew 6:19-24.  We are to seek first the Kingdom of God and all else we be added.  Matthew 6:33.

I personally would hate to be down on my knees praying for a new car,  bigger house, an expansive wardrobe etc., when Jesus cracks the sky.  We are to be about our Father's business.  His business is saving souls not giving out material possessions or other riches. 

For those who sowed their entire paycheck,  how would they feel it someone else reaped a new car, house, job, etc.  Reference John 4:34-37  one man sows and another reaps.  I don't know what God is doing in your house.  He may have a reason to ask that some sow their entire paycheck.  However, the reason may not be what seems obvious. 

Even so, most often in the Bible when God is talking about reaping and sowing.  He is not talking primarily about money.  Lastly, God reminds us in Proverbs 28:20 A faithful man will be richly blessed, but one eager to get rich will not go unpunished. 

[David Dupree]

Hi Breathed!! 

I am soo sorry that you have to go through this "thing."  I will probably let my wife deal with the faith issue more in that I know she will capture the essence of it appropriately.  But I will say this concerning that portion of your post:  Yes you are correct that you are given a measure of faith.  And no, it does not mean that you do not have faith just because you don't "measure" up to another's definition of what he or she defines as "your level of faith" or to their level of faith. 

Faith has to be exercised, like potential, and it is usually exercised when demands are placed upon it.  It is like the muscles in your body.  Everybody has them.  But depending on the attention given to them will determine tone, fitness etc.  Likeso with your faith. The same way you do different exercises to tone the muscles in the arms versus the muscles in the legs, you must do different exercises to strengthen faith for finances versus say faith for healing.  In the end, though, you must remember that it is all exercise.  And exercise is key regardless of the part to strengthen.  The same with faith. 

But let me speak more to your other issues.  You have God in you.  Although you are led by God and led by your shepherd, you still have free will and free choice.   By no means would I suggest that you not obey/follow the watchman of your soul.  Yet, I do not believe that you should feel guilty because of your decision.  You know your situation.  You know what your circumstances are.  In fact, you stated that you are already sharing/supporting in the purchase of the pastor's new vehicle sacrificially.  If your faith did not arise in agreement and say put in your paycheck, then you followed what you heard from within-albeit maybe from your mind as oppose to your spirit. :-)   Your giving should be joyful and hilarious.  If you found no joy in giving the check, better for you to keep it.

Was there a timeframe given?  Did you have to give it that day?  Was it not possible to "give" the paycheck over a period of time? You did not say. And those are things also that may help you be in agreement with the "vision."

The last thing you need to do in "church" is compare yourself to the next person.  It is difficult sometimes, but you have to command your soul to bless the Lord-not your neighbors.  Your flesh, mind, emotions and conscience are controllable if you allow your spirit to speak to them what the Word says. 

If you are worried about your "position" then don't.  Promotion still comes from God.  And what God has for you is for you.  So what if the pastor vacates all the positions and reappoints new boards?  Your gifts and talents are still with you and in you.  They will be used to the glory of God.  It is not about position anyway.  But it is a question of are you using your gifts and talents to the upbuilding of the Kingdom--directly or indirectly. (behind the scenes people are always needed) 

Do you really feel like you are doing your "best" in your giving financially? If you do, then leave it alone.  God knows your heart.  If you want conviction, then ask God to convict you if you were wrong in your decision.  Don't let positional pressures convict you and don't let keeping up with the Jones' syndrome convict you.  Sure allow the pastor's words to challenge you and spur you to a higher level of faith. 

Then again you have to learn as a mature Christian that there may be times that you do not have it at the time to give.  You can always afford to give, but you cannot give what you do not have.  Don't write bad checks  and call it faith as I know some people have done.   

I don't know if I have said all I want to, but I must go for now.  I may get back to this another time.  I hope you find some help herein.


dd

[sagesong]

[

By no means would I suggest that you not obey/follow the watchman of your soul. 

Why can't you disobey your pastor?  If what he is saying isn't lining up with Word, you should do just that.  Pastors are human beings.  They aren't always being guided by the spirit. Sometimes, they are ruled by their emotions, thoughts, feelings, the adversary just like the rest of us. 

Your advice starts with the assumption that Breathed's pastor in fact heard from God on this one and the struggle is hers.  What if he didn't?

The pastor up the road from me did a big push to buy a new building.  He was certain, it was a promise from God.  The congregation gave until it hurt.  Folk took out second mortgages, all on faith.  They raised the first installment for the down payment.  They could not meet the next installment.  Their promised land was sold to another congregation.  They lost all the money they had invested in this vision. 

Sometimes even the "man of God" can be mistaken. 

If as you say, her spirit did not arise in agreement, it may in fact be because she tried the spirit by the spirit and found it was not of God.  Is it possible that her internal conflict is because of her emotions and mind and not conviction from God?

[Forum Administrator]

Hello Breathedonme. 2 Corinthians 9:7 says this: "Let each one give as he  has made up his own mind and purposed in his heart, not reluctantly or sorrowfully or under compulsion for God loves (He takes pleasure in, prizes above other things, and is unwilling to abandon or to do without a cheerful (joyous, "prompt to do it") giver whose heart is in his giving." (AMPLIFIED, emphasis mine.)

As believers, we are indeed each given the same measure of faith to begin with (Romans 12:3). It is up to each of us as individuals, as led by the Spirit of God by His word, to use our faith and to grow in faith as given opportunity. We are not to compare our faith to each other's faith. Romans 14:22 says, "Hast thou faith? Have it to thyself before God." (KJV) We are to "rate [our] ability with sober judgment, each according to the degree of faith apportioned by God to him." (Romans 12:3b). Under the New Covenant (which came into effect after Christ's death and resurrection), sin is redefined as "whatever is not of faith" (Romans 14:23). It says, reading from verse 22: "Your personal convictions on such matters--exercise them as in God's presence, keeping them to yourself striving only to know the truth and obey His will. Blessed is he who has no reason to judge himself for what he approves, who does not convict himself by what he chooses to do. But the man who has doubts (misgivings, and uneasy conscience) about eating [or giving in your example], and then eats [gives] perhaps because of you [i.e. because of what other folks are doing] stands condemned before God, because he is not true to his convictions and he does not act from faith. For whatever does not originate and proceed from faith is sin, whatever is done without a conviction of its approval by God is sinful." (AMPLIFIED, emphasis and [comments] mine).

What does all that mean?  What is sin (not of faith) for someone else may not necessarily be sin for you. The scripture clearly indicates that you should not give under compulsion (i.e. because you feel forced to give). If you did not have a personal conviction (from the Holy Spirit) and a willingness in your heart to give, you should not give. If you give and it's not in faith, it's meaningless to God and will produce no results/harvests. When you give--or whatever you do--you must do it in faith, faith which is energized, expressed, activated and working through love (Galatians 5:6) not because you're pressured, not to try to save face, not because you are/feel forced, not because of emotional/spiritual blackmail.

When you give, it should always be unto God; never unto man. God is looking at your heart and according to His word, "There is now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live and walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit." (Romans 8:1, AMPLIFIED) If the Holy Spirit leads you by (that inner witness/knowing in) your spirit to give, by all means, give without hesitation, not according to your senses (i.e. based on what you see in your visible circumstances), but by faith (placing your trust and complete dependence on the Lord of the Harvest to provide for you in abundance). When you are led of God to give, it's because He wants to bless you and help you grow in faith. If the Holy Spirit has not "spoken" to you or if you are unwilling to give, don't give. God encourages us in our faith; He does not belittle us or make us feel condemned. He will help you to grow in your faith so that you can be even more blessed. Each opportunity He presents to you to give will be just that--an opportunity to be blessed and to grow in faith. 

[sagesong]

We are taught that if the prophet (our pastor) of our house says it, we have to know that he hears from God and we are to be obedient to it.  We shouldn't have to wait for a confirmation from God.  He is the confirmation.  If we can't trust that God speaks to and through our pastor, who (again) is a prophet, then we shouldn't be in the ministry.

Wow!! I wonder if this is how the children of Israel got led astray. 

I do write checks believing God even when I am not sure if the money is there because this is what we are taught.  However, although my bank pays my checks, I am still deducted from my account.  I don't have overdraft protection. 

Why do you think God doesn't make a way for the money to make into your account before the check?  You're being obedient to the "watchman of your soul". 

Are you paying overdraft fees, each time you walk out on faith and the money isn't there?  If so, is that being a good financial steward? 

[David Dupree]

Hi Sister Sage,

   I started with the assumption that Breathed gave me.  I said I wasn't suggesting she disobey her pastor because I wanted to be clear that I wasn't addressing his rightness or wrongness, but I was addressing her concerns about her response to his request/demand.  In other words, it wasn't about him, but it was/is about her. 

   Sure there are some pastors who don't seem to be pastors after God's own heart and follow their own thinking as opposed to God by and through His Word. Woe unto them. 

   I don't know enough about Breathed's situation and pastor to say that he did not hear from God.  All I know is that even through it, Breathed has an independent decision to comply or not to comply. 

   I don't pastor bash because I don't touch God's anointed and I do His prophets no harm.  Psalm 105:15 And yes, as fallible humans most of us miss it sometimes.  There was a man called Moses who missed it when he smote the rock instead of speaking to it.  Yet God honored His people and allowed water still to run out.  David missed it and the baby died.  Yet the next baby went on to become the next king of Israel.  Elijah missed it when he thought he was the only prophet left.  Peter missed it when he rose up in flesh right after having a revelation.  Yes, the chosen of God can miss it and God can still honor them because they are after His heart. 

   Furthermore, many pastors and teachers have been talking about 1st fruits offerings and such these days. See Exodus 22:29; Deut. 26:2; Nehemiah 10:35-38.   In fact I am familiar with a couple pastors that equate the 1st fruits to one paycheck since most if not all of their church  membership is not agricuturally based and there is no initial "harvest" of crops or cattle to be brought.

   So I cannot assume that this pastor is not "in the book."  Also the wisdom of one may not be the wisdom of all.  In other words, pastors differ in their approach which is why I asked the question of whether it had to be brought all at one time or how it was to be paid.  People work different payment arrangements.  Some are paid monthly, bimonthly, biweekly, weekly and self-employed without a regular salary and many are paid weakly.     There was no indication that the pastor took any of that into account, therefore wisdom says that each person would have to adjust it according to his/her personal situation.

dd

[sagesong]

I didn't bash her pastor.  I just acknowledged that everything a pastor says out of his month may not be truth.  Therefore, it is up to us to be in the Word ourselves to make sure we are not blindly following wrong doctrine.  Remember, I said to pray and ask God for guidance, understanding and peace on the issue.  And to pray for the Pastor, primarily because of his response to her not standing.  His display of anger and his threat to have people removed from office was not of the Holy Spirit.  It is not bashing to suggest that someone may have a moment of weakness, fleshliness.  We all do.

Pastors are human.  I'm not sure how they got to be placed on these pedestals just below Jesus.  It isn't fair to them actually.  That's why when they fall short, people lose their minds and their faith.  They had placed man in a position he was never meant to hold.

I'm not sure how it is faith or in order that his woman is struggling to send two children to college and support her mother, but feels compelled to help buy a car for a man who is gainfully employed and probably doesn't even need it.  It is because her mother isn't called into ministry that she should struggle to have the basics while her daughter helps to provide a luxury items for someone else.

I am familar with first fruits or Terumah (in Hebrew).  The Jewish tradition holds that Terumah is on average 1/40 of your income.   I'm not sure how they did the conversion from the agricultural ecomony, but it is my understanding that is a pretty standard conversion. 

There is also the tithe that goes to your house.  This is the set up for the seventh year Sabbath when  Jewish people don't work for one year and live off what they produced in the other years. 

Another portion is suppose to go to the poor.  According to Jewish interpretation of the Torah -- or God's instructions to his people -- we are commanded to set aside a portion of our income for the care of the poor. 

I can't wait until Pastors start peaching those tithes and offering, then the people can really get blessed.