Hello everyone,
This is gonna get reeaal hot, so I'm just going to cut to the chase. I'm really miffed by the overwhelming support from "us" in the church toward the Obama candidacy. Now don't get me wrong I'm proud that we have a Brotha on verge of being the 1st black president. HOWEVER, as a bible believing Christian I can't support a man who's clearly a socialist, Pro-gay, pro-choice etc. that go against God's word. And McCain isn't the impressive conservative either. But what frustrates me is that how is it that the body of christ completely ignores these issues that God values? I've had conversations with black "Christian" folk who can't even articulate a policy they favor and why but they're voting for a "brotha" anyway. One fellow believer said to me "Well I don't agree with same sex marriage and abortion blah,blah,blah but I put all that aside because i think it 'll be cool for my son to experience a black president". Seriously!?!? And I hate to label this this way but it almost borders on hypocrisy, not that I should be surprised because we all can be hypocritical but no believer is really being honest about why there voting for him :o The truth of the matter is is that I think we've chosen our pride over our values as believers and that is just as racist as Not voting for Obama cause he's black if not disturbing. :-\ Is this the part we've come to in the word where Jesus says something about sifting? Hmmm... ???
Hello gracegirl, :)
I'll must say ... that I "like" your fire! And ... YES!!! ... it "IS" important to be able to articulate one's beliefs when asked ... especially when it comes to monumental history in the making. By the way .... Have you noticed that right now in this country, there is not one nationally syndicated African American "televised" news medium??? But I digress ... sorry :-[
Back to your topic ... You've touched upon a lot in your O/P ... soooooooooo .,.. I'll take a few your points one by one ... here's how I see it!
You wrote:QuoteI'm really miffed by the overwhelming support from "us" in the church toward the Obama candidacy. Now don't get me wrong I'm proud that we have a Brotha on verge of being the 1st black president. HOWEVER, as a bible believing Christian I can't support a man who's clearly a socialist, Pro-gay, pro-choice etc. that go against God's word.
O.K. ... let's explore the true facts concerning:
· What is a Socialist? A Socialist is an advocate or supporter of socialism.
Soooooo ... errrr .... Ummmm ...What is
Socialism?
Socialism is an economic system in which the production and distribution of goods are controlled substantially by the government rather than by private enterprise, and in which cooperation rather than competition guides economic activity. There are many varieties of socialism. Some socialists tolerate capitalism, as long as the government maintains the dominant influence over the economy; others insist on an abolition of private enterprise. All communists are socialists, but not all socialists are communists.
Question ...Okaaay ... soooooo ... what are Senator Barack Obama's views concerning this countries economic systems ... regarding the production of & the distribution of goods? Meaning, does Senator Obama believe that the production & distribution of "goods" should be "solely" controlled by city, state and or federal governmental agencies??? OR Does Senator Obama & or his campaign support the United States gov. holding a dominant influence over the economy - ergo, supporting the abolition of private enterprise???
Answer ...Desiring that our government(s) in this country, govern in a transparent, ethical & cost effective manner - in no way suggests that this Senator is for BIG government. According to his website ... AND ... his public orations ... he most definitely "does not" agree with these ideas. I've referenced below, a "url" from his "official website" for your consideration regarding the "truth".
http://obama.senate.gov/issues/good_government_responsible_spending/
Next ...Concerning your questions of Senator Obama's views on homosexual behavior & a woman's right to choose (Roe vs. Wade) ... again, I have "url'd" the "truth" concerning both his & his campaign's (which are mutually agreed upon) beliefs.
http://obama.senate.gov/speech/051116-remarks_of_sena_2/
http://obama.senate.gov/speech/051110-remarks_of_sena_1/
:)
Jussss' one mo' tiny ting' :-*
My precious sista', I hear you ... I see from your words that you are not, nor should you be ... looked at as some kind of a traitor for DARING to challenge this man's beliefs ... Amen?
Earlier, I'd made mention of the medium of television, for this reason ...
For most of our history in this country, our People have been stripped of the TRUTH about who we are & from whence we've come!!! This was & is a spiritual demonic "Willie Lynch" stain that our People have been forced to perpetuate, even to this very day ... Amen? Meaning, we have been forced (in times past) to allow our own rich history in this country ... to be RE-WRITTEN by otha' Peoples. Such is the case with the American media influence! You see, we live in a society of ... EEEASY!!! As in, it is easier to believe what has been "carefully" fed to us by media snippets from newspapers, radio sound-bites, & TELEVISION news-clips! All or most of which, have been "colored" to steer the all-consuming public (most especially us) towards a certain "negative" way of thinking ... particularly when it comes to us!
Skipping all the way down to your last comment concerning "The Wheat & The Tare" ... Please know that it is our Father in heaven via His Son, who shall do this sifting.
From my heart,
Gracious
:-*
So sistah Gracious, am I safe to assume your an Obama supporter? Because I've gotten very similiar responses such as yours from Obama supporters..in the church. I'm well aware of what's on his website as well as our history/struggles as a people. BUT I'm also aware of what Obama has said in his speeches which are not consistent. I was emailed the article below that I think shed's light on the very concern I have with his inconsistencies. Farrakhan refers to him as the "messiah"(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OowxMcVTjTE) He has an abundant amount of support from Muslims and radical islam because, out of respect, his father is Muslim. Excerpts from Obama's book lays out all his associations with marxist and the Bill ayers of the world etc. 20 years under black liberation theology. This definitely calls into question his character and judgement. And explains his socialist positions. He doesn't have to be a communist, his influences are obvious. Unfortunately, the media and it's biases aren't going to scratch the surface on any of this which is what concerns me because my gut tells me that Obama is gonna have everyone duped :-\ . Oh and if you didn't see the Saddleback conference with Rick Warren, this is where all my redflags came up because there are no teleprompters, no fan fare just honest direct question that concern us "evangelicals" that Obama clearly was not comfortable answering. Check it out. ;)
http://trevinwax.com/2008/08/17/obama-mccain-with-rick-warren-at-saddleback-forum-video/
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Perspectives/Default.aspx?id=286720
God bless ya Gracious...you know I love your feedback :-*
Have you asked God who you should vote for?
Hi Gracegirl and others. I like to jump in here because down through the years, I have developed some fire of my own.
I am thoroughly discouraged by those Bible thumpers (of which I am glad to be one) who will not prove all things. First of all the "black church" as it were has long been a source of community activism and combination of theology as a basis for civil rights and self reliance. Just because this man sat under the "teaching" of a great teacher/preacher/theologian for 20 years does not mean he ascribed to all his thinking..in fact, he said that he did not ascribe to certain things spoken over the pulpit there. And yet, all that was said by Wright is not attributed to Obama. What kind of thinking is that? Obama didn't say it.
(as an aside, if we are held responsible for all we hear, we are in a whole heap of trouble) Furthermore, there is nothing in the background of Obama to suggest that he has "acted" in such a way to suggest he espoused the same thoughts as Wright.
Before you mistake me, let me just make it clear I am pro-Wright. I have known him for many years. I make it a point to hear him in person every chance I get because of the profundity of wisdom and provoking of thought provided by him through his unique understanding of the scriptures. I have been thoroughly strengthened and encouraged through his writings also. Unfortunately, I only have two of his books.
Back to the point...I have heard by non-blacks, the complaint that the black church doesn't stick to the scriptures and infuses too much of personal experience. Then of course I have heard that the problem with the "white church" is that their communities are in trouble because they don't know how to relate the scriptures to their life today.
Whoops...back to the point.
Does it mean that since there is no directly correlative scripture that things that affect others do not matter? I don't believe so. At the same time, there are many scriptures that are overlooked..for example homelessness is another form of jail. Are we visiting though in that prison? Are we caring for the widows and orphans? No, we are spending the money protesting and fighting abortion when if more money was put into adoption programs, orphanages and foster programs more persons may change their mind about aborting knowing there is a safe place for the child to go. What about putting more money into health insurance and access to prenatal care so that persons would change their mind about aborting?
I don't understand how it is okay to fight abortion and also okay to support and authorize the bombing of villages containing babies, pregnant women, innocent people, just because they are not American. "Thou shalt not kill" did not come with qualifiers, age limits, nationalities, religious stipulations or the like.
(Another aside...the American press everyday reports on the number of Americans killed or hurt in conflict in the middle east. What they rarely report is the numbers on non-Americans who get killed..especially those who are non-military. It is like there is no interest if it is not American. Well, I care!!!!)
Another aside...God has not called us to be bigoted or racist, even to those who don't look or believe or act as us. Therefore, to believe in providing rights for those being discriminated against does not make you pro-gay no more than not providing those rights has done anything to reduce the gay population.
Another aside...if talking to Ayers is wrong then so was Jesus talking to the Samaritan woman, or Jesus going to Zaccheus house or Jesus talking to the lepers or etc. etc. We are taught in scripture to agree with your adversary quickly. you don't agree with him by not talking to him. It is not a scripture but the old saying says keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
Jesus told us to go into Judea, Samaria and the uttermost parts of the earth. That means we cannot take an America for the Americans view only. The WORLD needs to be saved. Evangelism is stiffled when we don't have open relationships with certain countries in the world. You don't open doors by being afraid of opening the door. (Yes, sometimes the uttermost part of the earth is right around the block. ) (As an aside..how do they ignore the people McCain used to hang around who are serving or have served time behind bars?)
What I am saying is...let's take the WHOLE counsel of Christ and not "nit pick" those parts that we easily identify with. As Jesus disciples found out, Jesus had sheep who were not of His fold.
To those folks who are concerned about the next meal, "give us this day our daily bread" is important. To those who got a freezer full, they pick on other issues.
And if we are not going to "go ye into all the world" can't we at least treat the people in our own country right?
The same ideology that was responsible for the crusades; the same ideology that took the U.S. from the Indians; the same ideology that believed enslaving Africans and stripping them from their homeland was okay; the same ideology that believed in separate, but equal..that same ideology of Nationalism is at work today, busy equating Christianity and American citizenship. The sad part is that it is equated to "their" ideals of what being an American is AND what being a Christian is.
(n.b those same folks who wrote that we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal did not include black men in that equation cause we were not considered by many of them to be men.)
This is just for fun, but take this test and see where you stand. I came out right in the middle, 7 for one candidate and 6 for the other. :-)
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/MatchoMatic/fullpage?id=5542139
dd
p.s. I agree with Sage..the key is the pray and be led by the spirit as what to do with your vote.
Okay well I guess that answers my question..it's about black pride! Since I keep getting the "black history" recap. We didn't get reparations, nor our forty acres and a mule either so lets cut a brotha some slack, put our biblical worldview aside, get a brotha into the presidency(that'll make up 400 years of slavery) and maybe we can evangelize him. I mean, us christians ain't walking uprightly all the time anyway, I think the lord'll let this one slide :-\
No Gracegirl, for me none of this is about black pride. It is totally about a Biblical worldview. But admittedly, to get this worldview, a lot of this is definitely about ending the notion of white thought is right thought and forwarding the notion that God-thought is right thought. Too long people have "let" themselves be deceived that Eurocentric interpretations and notions are the way things ought to be. And we need to focus more on "what the Spirit is saying to the Church." I am about ending lies on all sides and telling truth all around.
My Bible lets me know that goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life. But people want to make associations and past deeds-not only of me, but also of family members and associates-follow me all the days of my life. Yes, I am still Eloise's baby boy. But I am neither a baby, nor a boy. When I became a (mature person in Christ) I put away childish things. That includes condemning others who are new creatures in Christ for what they have done or been accused of in the past.
So just like Jesus didn't bother the woman CAUGHT in adultery, I am not bothering one guy for his association with his neighbor, nor am I bothering another for association with an unrepentant convicted felon (Liddy). (http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=5861268)
All I am suggesting is that just as Peter had to acknowledge that when he adopted the view of the gospel going into all the world that some people would not adopt or adapt many of the underlying Jewish customs and feast days, we have to acknowledge that people in other countries (and in the same country for that matter) with other customs do not have to adapt or adopt Eurocentric values, customs, morays or the like to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Let me give a simple example. There are still many countries where many of the people cannot read or write. Therefore, the Eurocentric model suggests and implies that they are ignorant and immediately denegrates their personal value. (often they use the term illiterate instead) However, quite to the contrary, many of those same people are able to recite gobs and gobs of their history. They know cures for ailments that are not written or under the Eurocentric guise of scientific. They have methods and methodologies with significant cogent logical flow based upon their cultural idioms. They have spices and recipes that create mouth watering delicacies. But so often their way of doing what they do is discounted because they cannot read or write.
Love of neighbor as one's self is a commandment. Again, it is about the whole counsel of God. We like to take the "counsel" or scriptures and fit them into our culture instead of our culture and fitting it into the scripture. It is the round peg into the square hole concept. When you put the round peg into the square hole, something is missing. You end up with holes where the scripture doesn't line up to your culture. Those holes are just opportunity for the enemy to step in and mess up stuff. Conversely, more appropriately would be to put the square peg into the round hole. Something needs to be trimmed for it to fit. You "should" trim off your culture that does not fit the scriptures.
Whoops gotta go get some work done.
dd
"Again, it is about the whole counsel of God. We like to take the "counsel" or scriptures and fit them into our culture instead of our culture and fitting it into the scripture. "
I think we are raising up a HOT issue here. I need to understand something here. Are we suppose to fit the culture into the scripture? I'm kinda confused? I need some clearity. The only thing that comes to my mind Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Gracegirl you made a good point " maybe we can evangelize him" does he not support a socialism belief (in other words- all religions are one).
What came first? God or culture?
Sure many of us are cultured before we have an encounter with God. But then we have to be transformed by the renewing of our mind so that we don't think the same way we did prior to coming to Christ.
The tendency is to rely on I Corinthians 15:46 "The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual." This is in reference to the account in Gen. 2:7 However, the "natural" man refers to that man before receiving Christ Jesus. Thereafter receiving Christ normally that untransformed man is called a "carnal" Christian. Yet, in Genesis 1:26-27, we see that God Created man in His image. That Created "bara" means to form out of nothing. (Spirit) Later we see male and female created He them. That created "asah" really means made or to form out of something. Therefore, in Genesis 1 we see that the created portion -spirit-man came before the made portion male-man. After the fall, the strategy of redemption is to return things to the correct alignment so we can get out of the natural to the spiritual.
So once we get regenerated, we have to transform our thinking out of the mindset of the world, of the natural, of the carnal and put spirit first.
We are in a situation where there are too many things that do not fit the culture that are being deleted. For example, prayer in schools is one of those things that culture no longer allowed and was deemed to be against (or not fit) the culture and therefore eliminated. But thank God that the elimination of prayer in schools did not and could not eliminate prayer. Yet, we live in a culture where we pray IF we have time and tithe IF we have enough left after other things. That is fitting scripture into culture. Instead we should keep first things first, by setting aside time to pray and taking tithes off the top -- fitting culture into scripture.
dd
p.s. In the book of Acts, the new Christians brought what they had and laid it at the apostles feet for them to determine how best to use it. That is the way socialism works.
No Gracegirl, for me none of this is about black pride. It is totally about a Biblical worldview. But admittedly, to get this worldview, a lot of this is definitely about ending the notion of white thought is right thought and forwarding the notion that God-thought is right thought. Too long people have "let" themselves be deceived that Eurocentric interpretations and notions are the way things ought to be. And we need to focus more on "what the Spirit is saying to the Church." I am about ending lies on all sides and telling truth all around.... Hmmm..sure it's not about black pride? Cause this is sure starting to sound like the historical, black liberation theological rhetoric to me. But if your fine with a brotha who is clearly Super liberal, pro-gay, pro-choice, a socialist (thank you Da2) that believes ALL religions are the same (which is biblically erroneous), hence a government lead life(which last I checked fell under Communism), than O is your man! :-\ And I have prayed, researched, listened(from the primaries, to Saddleback, to this last debate) GREATLY over this sagesong which is how I've come to this revelation.
God Bless you all 8)
Gracegirl!!
We must pray for the church has fallen away from the truth, and many will not recognize the truth even when it is presented to them! The true gospel the apostles preached is no longer really preached- instead health, wealth, feel good gospel. I could go into so much detail but its not the right place. The church is sleeping just as the disciples did when Christ asked them to watch will he went to pray, he came back to find them sleeping, not watching!!!! Read between the lines.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we declare to you by the Lord's [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him [Hermann Cremer, Biblico-Theological Lexicon of New Testament Greek.] in death].
May
Here is just a some iinformation to think about!!! :D
Mark 8:15 And He was giving orders to them, saying, "Watch out! Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod."
In this passage, Jesus is telling his followers to beware of the combined leaven of the Pharisees, which represents the church and Herod which represents the state or government. Jesus was essentially warning against the corruption of politics mixing with the gospel message. Leaven represents corruption and when you mix the corruption of government with the gospel message you damage it. Herod was corrupt to the core just like many of our politicians today. He killed children, he mocked Jesus, and he put himself in God's place in the minds and hearts of the people. Even when Jesus came on the scene, Herod desired to destroy him and his works because he didn't want to share his influence with him. King Herod attempted to befriend Jesus and pretended to desire to see his miracles and works, but Jesus called him a fox because he knew he was only wanting to appear to like him but was secretly conspiring against him.
This is happening today. The politicians that are running for office have infused their immoral doctrines with the flavor of the church and are befriending the church only to destroy the credibility of the church. Let's look at it this way. Did you ever think that church folks would vote for men that are for abortion? What kind of church folks vote for men that are for same sex marriages? What kind of church folks will vote for a man that desires to silence the churches stand against gay right and considers churches too homophobic? What kind of church folks desire to see a candidate elected so badly that they throw their biblical, moral base out temporarily just to make history? We have infused politics and religion in America so much so, that the candidates don't fear the church anymore. They don't fear our stands for truth and righteousness because the leaders of our churches are backing them! They don't fear the repercussions of going against God because God's men are following them! God wants to be in control of us so that we can stand before governments and rulers of darkness and proclaim that Jesus is Lord and that they should repent. Even when Satan took Jesus up on the mountain and showed him the governments of the world and offered them to him, Jesus didn't want them. and rebuked the devil for trying to get him to be apart of his governments! This tells us that Satan had dominion over the worlds governments because he was able to offer them to Christ. Satan took the dominion from man in the garden and is using it to create his 1 World Government ruled by the antichrist. But we are so excited about seeing the first black man or the first woman elected, that we are missing the picture that is being drawn. The church is backing itself into a corner and we have begun to support people that are sly like foxes. We are backing candidates that claim Christianity only to gain the churches votes but their policy's are antichrist. And remember, there is a big difference in praying for our political leaders vs. standing for our political leaders. People of God, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.
Suggested Reading: Luke 4:8, Matt. 14:1, Luke 13:32, Dan. 11:36
©2008 G. Craige Lewis All Rights Reserved
I'll quickly jump in to weigh in on this subject. I am committed to the position of seeking God's mind on who to vote for. I am not looking at either candidate's position on issues, or their past voting record, or their party, or any other superficial thing. When Samuel went to anoint a king (for the second time) he was selecting based on what his senses were telling him and would have made the wrong choice had he not listened to what God had to say about it. We are in this world, but we have a different way of doing things. We walk by faith, not by sight/sensory perception. God only knows the heart and He can, by His Spirit, reveal to us all the information we need in order to make the right choice. Didn't He say in all our ways we should acknowledge Him and He would direct our paths? That includes our selection of a president also. We are not ignoring issues, but we (the Church) do not approach/deal with issues the same way the world does. I encourage all of us to seek God's face on this matter and get His heart on it. There is someone that He wants to rule whose heart will be in His hand, and only He knows which of the candidate's hearts will be most pliable. We must press into God's presence through prayer and find out who that person is. Then be it popular or unpopular in the world's eyes, (or even as this hot subject reveals, in some believers' eyes) we must have the courage to vote not according to Democrat/Republican, or McCain/Obama or even issues, but according to God's desire on the matter.
I agree with Forum Administrator.
God considers all things beyond what we can even fathom. Surrend to his will for leadership of our country.
As an aside, some points of clarity.
We don't need to evangelize Obama as he is already a confessed Christian. I don't agree with all of Obama's poltical views, but I won't be so bold as to declare he isn't a Christian just because I don't agree with his every opinion. He says he is saved by grace through Jesus Christ.
Also, socialism is not about religious beliefs, but a social and economic structure. Socialism is to capitalism as hundism is to scientology.
Be prayerful, then vote in peace knowing no matter the outcome, God is in control.
The Lord shall be Glorified!!!
With this saying I understand that with the same judgement I give, I will also receive!!!Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again Matthew 7: 1-2.
Obama is not a christian!!
The bible says, Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. What fruit- good christian fruit have you seen Obama bring forth? Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. Matt 7:15-17. Do not be deceived God is not mocked what a man sows he shall reap.
Look as christians we must speak the truth, live the truth, breath, and eat the truth. Test the spirits each and every one of them. In saying that we must also test ourselves to see if Jesus Christ is truely LORD over our lives and not just Saviour.
Lordship-meaning we obey his commend he has total control over us, that includes the choices we make. Gods commends are TRUTH!!!
No offense, but be careful when you place yourself in the judgement seat.
Is McCain a Christian? He's had multiple marriages and affairs. Does that mean he isn't a Christian. Is he a ravening wolf?
Sarah Palin also a confessed Christian has been caught in more than one lie. She is now being investigated for misuse of public funds, which could be considered a type of stealing. Is she a Christian in your book?
What evil has Obama done? You don't agree with his views on same sex marriage. Okay. What if God hasn't finished with him yet. What if He is working on him, refining him, giving him increased understanding as we speak?
I have lied, stolen, had an abortion, fornicated, and worshipped idols before Jehovah. This is all after confessing Christ. Am I a Christian as you see it?
Are you saying because someone lacks wisdom or knowledge in some areas that they are not a Christian? Where is the room for God to grow, refine, and develop a person into his likeness?
This isn't about politics for me. Vote as you like. I've clearly topic jumped. I'm troubled by your proclamations as to who is or isn't a Christian.
;)
There is no reason to be "troubled by your proclamations as to who is or isn't a Christian". I'm not saying we don't have problems, don't get me wrong. And yes if more christians would put there self in the judgement seat they would be more repentent, and not have any boby, person, group, preachers, bishop, prophets, etc... coming into there church feeding them JUNK, and saying its the WORD.
All christians should be able to operate with the same power that the apostles did. Unfortunately all do not, thats why we have churches on every corner from city to city, and there is no change- anyways thats a whole diffrent topic. I'm not voting for any president, because both have way ward views, and the bible says a double minded man is unstable. I will vote for other things like protecting one man one woman marriage.
I will not apologize, but will pray that Obama finds the TRUE GOSPEPL, one that is not counterfeit, and makes you feel good, and no change.
I stand for truth, like Peter denied christ three times, before the power of the HOLY GHOST came upon him, and then proclaim the gospel even unto death. We must pray but and the same time correct each other in love, that way more souls will go to heaven!!!!
Amen Da2 I received the same scripture verse as well as Jeremiah which should be read in depth by all. It's troubling to me when I hear not according to Democrat/Republican, or McCain/Obama or even issues, but according to God's desire on the matter.. Doesn't God make it clear his desire on the matters of homosexuality, abortions, socialism, I mean it seems obvious to me, if we're truly praying and acknowledging him. No one is saying McCain is a true saint. But Jesus said we're not to be conformed to this world yet we've been sthingy fed by so much us this Obama excitement we've swallowed it whole! While mainstream biased media downplays Obama's contrary background and associations that directly influence his judgment. Judgement that will affect our religious liberties in the future as Christians. Where's the discernment? You hit the nail on the head Da2 we have truly trumped our values as Christians in order to make history. :-\
OK ... After my initial response ... I'd sat silent ... watching & praying about the
venom so freely spewed by some concerning Senator Obama.
In bold red letters ... that he's not a Christian?
Question(s)!Is not a
Christian, someone who
RECEIVES JESUS The CHRIST into their hearts as their
PERSONAL Lord & Savior? Is this not an individual's heart concern??? If this is so, is it biblically, and or spiritually correct for us to sit in judgement of another's
HEART & MOTIVE concern? Is this "spiritual re-birth & indwelling," between man & other men (and or women) ... OR ... is this PERSONAL SPIRIYUAL CHOICE ... between GOD & THAT individual??? As Christians, are we not charged to :
"...be not conformed to this world: but to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, that we may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God..."How do we do this with HATRED in our heart??? Sista's Gracegirl & da2bjeez ... what have you proven here? That ... This world teaches us to HATE one another ... to cut & tare one another apart!!! Not to admonish that which we are lead is distateful in the sight of GOD ... IN LOVE!!!
YOU do not LOVE Senator Obama as a "professed" child of GOD, which he confessess freely & openly, simply because he does not view his faith with YOUR through YOUR OWN imperfect lenses?For me my Sisters, actually it was Sage & DD that hit the nail on it's proverbial head ... by both inferring that ... whether you agree or diagree with the policies of a "political" candidate, do either of you have the RIGHT to
JUDGE another's heat-choice (motive)
NO ... my sisters ... YOU DO NOT!!!
On judgement concerning matters of the heart ...QuoteMatthew 7:2-4
(New International Reader's Version)
2 You will be judged in the same way you judge others. You will be measured in the same way you measure others.
3 "You look at the bit of sawdust in your friend's eye. But you pay no attention to the piece of wood in your own eye. 4 How can you say to your friend, 'Let me take the bit of sawdust out of your eye'? How can you say this while there is a piece of wood in your own eye?
What I have seen from you both (da2bjeez & Gracegirl) is somewhat surprising to me. Because I've witnessed & been blessed by your mature & loving hearts releasing true wisdom.
Loving you all :-*,
Gracious
WOO! :o
I will take a seat after this. True love is correction even if it means hurting a person. You continue to lie, then you will have the spirit of Lies. I understand that this may be a heated topic, all I'm asking for is Obama's fruits, fruits for the KINGDOM. My lord informed me in his word which he puts above his name that you shall know them by there fruits. Are Catholics christians, are Jews christians? We have many people professing christ for years and still they are not changed, we must questions if the gave there emotions to God or there heart? True confessing of CHRIST brings change, if you get saved today and God sends someone to enlighthen you that abortion is sin, God gaves you the power to change that immediately, because his spirit dwells in you. Don't get me wrong it may sometimes take longer, but if your dealing with something and God is telling you need to stop, how long will he strive with you?
We have rap singers, r&b artists receiving Jesus The Christ INTO their heart, and still cussing, have premarital sex, doing drugs, and acting dressing like the world. Is this not an individual's heart concern??? Would you say the are christians? Tell me, I need to know. Please inform me!!!!
Don't be deceived my friends there are many people in sheep clothing, we must ask God to open our eyes. We cannot take from the word of GOD what we want and leave the rest out. Let me ask a question all all religions ONE?
I don't have hatred in my heart, just asking questions thats all Gracious.
Hi Da2 and others.
You raise a good question that is the source of much controversy down through the years and in my opinion, does not have a clear cut answer..or at least an answer that seems to be readily accepted by most persons--especially those in the body of Christ. :)
I will probably just add to the disparity, but here goes.
Christian is commonly defined as "Christ-like" or as "one who follows after the precepts and concepts of Christ.
For many in the "body" of Christ, Christian has come to mean "one who is born again" or "one who is saved."
Who is right? Well, the Bible does not define per se' Christian. However, in Acts 11:26 it says that the disciples were first called Christians at Antioch. Where these disciples the 12 of Jesus? I don't believe so. (cause at that time, the original disciples were then being called apostles.) I believe these disciples were those who had sat and been taught for a year about Jesus by Barnabas and Saul. (and the way Barnabas and Saul taught, you can be sure they all received the Holy Ghost!) So those who gave the name Christian to Christians were not the church people, but the people of Antioch to distinguish those who had been in that teaching. ;D
So does that mean that the church should adopt the world's view of what a Christian is? No. The church does not have to conform to the world, but still needs to be transformed.
Peter uses the term in 1 Peter 4:16 when he says, "if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed..." Strong's has the Greek translation of "Christianos" which means "a follower of Christ."
Were the disciples, the original 12, "saved" or "born again" when they began to follow Jesus? No. In fact, some of them did not truly understand who Jesus was at the time, even after Peter's revelation. That leads me to conclude that one can be a follower of Christ and not be saved. (in fact, I know a few.)
So back to your questions: "are Catholics Christians?" I ask back, do they follow Christ? "Are Jews Christians?" I ask back do they follow Christ?
Again, you say we must question if they gave their emotions to God or their heart? All I recall the scripture saying is that you were to confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him (Jesus) from the dead, you shall be saved. Rom 10:9.
But then Matthew says he that endures to the end shall be saved. Matt 10:22
Mark says he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. Mark 16:16
Luke says thy faith has saved thee. Luke 7:50, 18:42
John says Jesus says I am the door, enter in and be saved. John 10:9
John also recorded Jesus telling Nicodemus in John 3, you must be born again.
Acts 2:21 says whoso calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 16:31 believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
Notice, all of those scriptures have to do with being saved. And we already established that being Christian does not equal being saved.
I will admit that I have heard some rappers and such that spout or espouse all manner of filth, yet at grammy time, I have heard some of them not only thank God, but also give honor to their "Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."
dd
I'll add, we shall understand it better by and by. I am only glad that it is God's job to judge my heart and not man's. I would caution you all not to set the bar so high that you yourself cannot make it in.
Thank you da2bjeez, :)
I believe you when you say: ... "I don't have hatred in my heart, just asking questions thats all Gracious." YES!!! I do take you at your word. Do you extend this same graciousness to others? ... Could you have misjudged through your "interpretations" & in your accusations / assertions???
Consider this ... You know, I remember (maybe you do as well too) eight years ago, shortly before GW maneuvered his way into the White House via the Federal Supreme Court! The devil planted distractions concerning "the body of Christ"! Questioning the institution of marriage? Abortion? And other "Christian Value Issues" ... do you remember? Wasn't it THOSE very questions that literally tore this country apart??? And while "faith" denominations were hatefully bickering among themselves ... the "enemy, supporting lies & greed", waltzed his way right into the Commander in Chief position of this land! And the TRUEST "fork-tongued -wolf in sheep's clothing" Richard Chaney via The Carl Rove playbook (who's own daughter is a PROFESSED lesbian) paved the way for a 2 term Bush presidency!!!
News Flash!!! ... 'Ole GW professes to be a CHRISTIAN!!! Have you or anyone DARED to question his ahhh ... CHRISYAN FAITH????
Question(s):
Eight years ago ... Did "they", the right wing conservatives of this country & others who hold deep seated bigoted mentalities ... DARE to label Al Gore (or even 4yrs ago ... Senator John Carry) as a " Socialist, a Marcsist, a Communist, a terrorist --- an Anti-American"??? Did "they" ask questions like ... "Who is the REAL Al Gore or John Carry??? Did "they" even QUESTION their religious professions of faith by labeling either of them as a NON-CHRISTIAN??? Yet, Vice President Al Gore, Senator John Carry AND Senator Edward Kennedy's (considered a beloved jewel from both sides of the political aisle) policies & professed beliefs all MIRROR Senator Barack Obama's!
A SUBDUED "TRUTH":
There are HUGE factions of this country, who FEAR Barack Obama, because he represents the culmination / the FRUITION ... of a "dream-deferred"!!! Not only for People of Color, but for EVERY downtrodden soul that has been battered soooo thoroughly, that they've almost given up - almost let go ... BUT ... for HIS (GOD's) STANDARD!!!
My Sista', we know that the devil IS shrewd, cunning, a counterfeit, AND REDUNDANT!!! he will use (if GIVEN an opportunity) even the Holy Bible AND it's precepts to destroy humanity!!! How many HATE Org.'s have maimed & killed & enslaved other human beings ... with the Holy Bible in one hand (quotin' scripture) & a whip or a "moose-shootin' " shotgun in the other???
Surely, in your seeing ... you've seen this REDUNDANT "smoke-screen" hovering overhead? It smells like - looks like the SAME "OLE fowl tricks & games of 8 years prior!
Now you say that you see deception (concerning Obama's Christian Faith), and in my heart ... I see deception too ... alil' differently tho' (concerning the bigoted mentality that would seek to separate Christ-Follwers)! But rather than pointing our fore-fingers at one another (e.g. who's an authentic Christian, who holds American values) & because you say that you do not "hate" Senator Obama ... surely we can join together as ONE BODY in CHRISTIAN LOVE through prayer concerning this man & his family, that GOD keep HIM safe from all hurt harm or danger ... guiding us ALL safely towards HIS TRUTH.
Thanks for listen'in, :-*
Gracious
I've read everyone's response and the only thing I will add is that God is TOTALLY in control!!!
President-Elect Obama . . . good, bad or indifferent . . . my hope is in the Lord. I don't believe Father God is in Heaven with the heavenly host saying, "Hey All, we messed up - dem folks done voted Obama in, so what do we do now? Go to Plan B!!!" Oh no. God knew Obama would be elected (is my belief).
TO GOD BE THE GLORY!!!! Debates on who is Christian and who is not; or who is "saved" and who is not, may be valid and certainly topics of correction or whatever should probably be addressed; however, I will go back to what I feel is the bottom line - GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL.
Just my 2 pennies!
Yes. God is in control always. As for conversations about who is or isn't a Christian, I would be careful.
Philsophical debates about what a Christian looks like yes, but who is or isn't based on what man sees of him or her, I wouldn't touch it. Our vision is blurry as best. We only see what we see, God sees all including into a man's heart.
My daughter received the following email sent to a co-worker from a friend! I think it sums it up:
For months now my email Inbox has been besieged by nearly hysterical warnings about what will happen if Barack Obama becomes President. I have been encouraged to be worried, afraid, concerned, prepared for disaster, and a whole host of other maladies if this happens. I do not deny the importance of this election, but it seems to me that we need a dose of perspective. So here, on the eve of the election, I would like to start my own email concerning this election. It's a "True/False" test. I'd like for all of us to take it. Feel free to email it on to whomever:
True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, Jesus will still be King.
True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, our responsibilities as Christians will not have changed one iota.
True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, the greatest agent for social change in America will still be winning the hearts and minds of men and women through the gospel, not legislation.
True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, my primary citizenship will still be in this order - (1) the Kingdom of God , (2) America , not vice-versa..
True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, the tomb will still be empty.
True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, the cross, not the government, will still be our salvation.
True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, our children will still be more concerned with whether or not we spend time with them than with who is President.
True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, my neighbor will still be my neighbor, and loving him/her will still be the second greatest commandment. (Do you know the first?)
True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, the only way to see abortion ultimately overturned will still be winning men and women to a high view of life through the gospel of Christ.
True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, the only way to see gay marriage ultimately defeated will still be winning men and women to a biblical view of marriage through the gospel of Jesus Christ.
True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, my retirement will still not match my treasure in Heaven.
True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, "Jesus Is Lord" will still be the greatest truth in the Universe.
True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, we will still know that God is in control.
No matter the outcome, I pray that you will remember who you are and who He is.
Yeah Girrrl,
So true ... yet, I can't help believing that it is "DIVINELY BECAUSE of", and not "inspite" of ... the way that this presidential election has transpired, that we are a better nation ... for this journey.
But ummm ... That's jus' me!
:-*