Deep Waters Relationship Advice

Matthew 5:

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Quote from: sagesong on March 13, 2008, 11:53:10 am

QuoteDid Jesus really mean this?

Matthew 5:

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Had to go back & get more of a contextual reference from Mat. 5  ... Amen?

Matthew 5:37-44 (KJV) 37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. 38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Matthew 5:37-44 (NIRV) 37 "Just let your 'Yes' mean 'Yes.' Let your 'No' mean 'No.' Anything more than this comes from the evil one. Be Kind to Others 38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye must be put out for an eye. A tooth must be knocked out for a tooth.'--(Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21) 39 But here is what I tell you. Do not fight against an evil person.    "Suppose someone hits you on your right cheek. Turn your other cheek to him also. 40 Suppose someone takes you to court to get your shirt. Let him have your coat also. 41 Suppose someone forces you to go one mile. Go two miles with him. 42 "Give to the one who asks you for something. Don't turn away from the one who wants to borrow something from you. Love Your Enemies 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor.--(Leviticus 19:18) Hate your enemy.' 44 But here is what I tell you. Love your enemies. Pray for those who hurt you.

Sage,

Yes, (within scriptural context) I do believe that He meant every word!

Then what do you think is scriptural context? 

It appears that I was the only person who had answered your initial question. And not only did I answer you ... I went further by "carefully" taking the time to provide 2 translations of THAT scripture - including "surrounding passages for clarification" ... which ALSO answers your 2nd question! 

Perhaps you might shed some light on where you wish to go with this?



Gracious

Thank you so much for so graciously taking the time to answer my question, for going out of your way to carefully, take the extra time to provide 2 translations of the scripture and the surrounding passages.

I clearly did not understand your intentions.  I must be confused.  Thank you again for giving me your time.

You are most welcomed! :)

Wasn't about "going of out my way" tho" :-\ 

What translation were you using? ... Was my immediate thought ... soooo, to better try and understand what it was that you were asking/wanting, I'd "carefully" posted 2 translations.  Have you ever tried to post dual scripts side by side on a cyber medium (lining up the verses)? 

Not an easy thing to do "unless" you do it "verrrry carefully" ;)

Now,

Could you answer this question ... please.

Quote"...Perhaps you might shed some light on where you wish to go with this?"

Thx,

Gracious

I posted the thread here and on another site simultaneously.   I recieved many responses on the other site and got some very thoughtful feedback. 

Once it was established, by most that Jesus did mean the passages literally,  the discussion turned to context, meaning, and application.  I may not have asked you the correct follow up question.  I do apologize.

My original thought when reading the scripture was honestly -- Jesus has lost his mind.  Then I came back to myself and remember I was talking about The JESUS. lol. 

You don't have to reply necessarily.  Unless you want to, then I would be happy to read your reply. 

I just wanted to clear up the confusion.  Again, thank you for taking the time to respond to my original post. 

I'll tell you what I "wrestle" with ...

When JESUS said this:



Sage,

I'm a forgiving sista', perhaps you'll need to minister to me on this ... but ... not taking someone who's wronged me to court? ... especially when they've  ILLEGALLY wronged me!!!

Here's my meaning:

My Pastor's son was the Pastor of a church. A few deacons got mad at him, went to 2 realtors & arranged to sell some of the churches property. Without the knowledge or consent of the their Pastor, the Deacon board, the Trustee board, or the congregation.  And then if that wasn't enough ... these same two deacons pad-locked the doors of the church so that "their own Pastor" (again, who was my Pastor's son) was locked out!!!

And guess what?  My Pastor's son would not LEGALLY restrain these two men (in a court of law)... even though "technically" what these two deacons had done was illegal! Instead, he simply took his congregation elsewhere & started a new church.

Huh ... I guess I've got a lot of growing "in HIS Grace" to do, because had that have been me ... Huuuuuuuney, let's just say ... not only would I have taken them to court!!!  Their children's children would STILL be payin' me & the "new" church that I was "forced" to plant!

I'm with you. I'm still learning to trust God, to acknowledge him in all my ways, to let him fight my battles, to truly cast my cares on him.

I think maybe your Pastor's son didn't want to be bound by and to something that God was trying to free him from.  Like the children of Israel, we can stay in Egypt and fight for our rights or we can move into the promised land.  Either way their is a fight ahead to be sure.  But, if Egypt isn't your destiny why wage war there?   

Not to mention, if you want my shirt and I willingly give you it and my coat as well, your offense has no power over me.  Also, if you are forcing me to do something to meet your need, if I willing do it and more.  Wow!!  Right? Now I am laying down my life for my brother.

These are just my thoughts.  I of course could be reading it wrong. 
I am still "wrestling"  even as God is showing me, teaching me, and leading me. 

Thank you Sage

I needed EVERY WORD you gave me!!!  Didn't stop to THINK about my Pastors son in such a "mature" unselfish - Godly way!!!  All I saw was anger & contempt for anyone that would seek to harm him.

What you shared with me has tempered me - pressed me to see beyond the natural ... to the spiritual ... to just where JESUS is in that situation.

And ... "your offense has no power over me" ...girl ... THAT spoke a chilling TRUTH to my spirit too!!!

You hit the nail on the head!!!  NOW ... I get it!!!


GOD Bless you
  :-*

Now can we pray that I get it.  I mean I know it, but I need to really get it so I can walk in it. 

Thank you talking with me so that God can work this out in me. 

Yeah, I agree ... you DO know it!  Its all in your spirit!  That's why you were able to share "it" (the lesson of those scriptural verses) to me, in a life application way.  Isn't that what GOD's inspiration - The Holy Bible is for? I believe that's why GOD gave HIS written Word to us ... so that we may apply HIS principles into our daily lives.

It's one thing to be familiar with this Holy Book - quoting script's, know where to find them, knowing all of the key people & all of the major & minor stories within The Holy Bible.  But for me the PURPOSE of HIS Inspiration - HIS Holy Word - The Holy Bible, is APPLICATION.  Knowing HOW to APPLY what we read from this book, into our daily lives.  Which calls into fore, another aspect of "application" ... WISDOM! 

From heaven, GOD sent us another aspect of HIMSELF - HIS SPIRIT - our Knowledge Regulator.  Wherefore, we are able to harness what we learn, extrapolate it (figure it out), so that we may use it where HE deems necessary ... Amen?

That's what YOU did for me.  And I bless you for it!  YOU translated "the spirit" of HIS inspiration - His written WORD, in terms that made sense to me.  You didn't make me feel stupid, you simply shared what The Holy Spirit gave you.  And THAT ministered ... to me.  Now when I read THAT scripture, I have a "personal" reference for it (a learned lesson) and I shall NEVER forget it.  As a matter of fact, rather than anger for what happened to my Pastor's son ... I've been given a testimony!!!  What an exchange!!!

You said,

Quote"I think maybe your Pastor's son didn't want to be bound by and to something that God was trying to free him from.  Like the children of Israel, we can stay in Egypt and fight for our rights or we can move into the promised land.  Either way their is a fight ahead to be sure.  But, if Egypt isn't your destiny why wage war there? "

Now, THAT was WISDOM!!! What's not to get ???


Gracious

I think for me it about application.  I want to walk in the truth that I know.  If it were my Pastor's son, or better still me, I'd have to lay before God confessing anger and rage.  Turning the other check would be a struggle, not at all my first response, or my second for that matter. 

True ... True.

But the beauty of us as human beings is our desire to "strive for perfection". which indicates that we each are imperfect ... Amen?  Do you believe that Jesus judges our imperfections "negatively" when we "earnestly" strive to seek HIS face?  What I'm saying is, GOD allows us to be who we are (imperfections & all) as long as we renew our minds daily in HIM.  HE knows our flesh ... far better than we, 'cause HE gave it to us! 

Maybe I'm wrong for feeling this ... but ... I don't feel bad about my "past" anger concerning those two deacons.  GOD never told us that anger was a sin!  The sin comes in when we HOLD that anger, long enough to become disconnected from HIS Voice - HIS WILL.

Now that I know better!  I'm too grateful to GOD for were I am now with that situation.  And it only took seconds to remove that burden! Only the time that it took for me to read the post that GOD gave you to write.

To me, walking in TRUTH ... is walking with Jesus, as in feeling that HE is accessible / available right where we are! I don't feel guilty for wanting to SLAP some sense into those men.  I feel GRATEFUL that I didn't DO anything to them including talking about them (gossiping) sooo that I wouldn't have a snowball effect of repenting to do!

I walk with my Savior - talk to him many times a day, and I don't try to walk in HIS shoes of Perfection. I simply keep the connection strong * HE takes care of EVERYTHING else!!!

Case in point ... HE sent me here to adjust (admonish) my spirit - right when I needed it!!! And I'm free-er for it! 

Maybe we shouldn't place so much value in what we'd failed to do in our past ... Maybe we ought to concern ourselves with simply getting closer to HIM & HE will take care of everything else ... including our anger & fear & our doubt.

Bless your heart.  Really.  I hear you and I'm declare that my soul (emotions) received it.   I am striving.   Thank you.

Sage & Gracious: 

Thanks for this thread as you both strive to "walk on water!"  I enjoyed reading it as I am also striving to walk on water. :-)

  I don't struggle with the text.  I believe that it is clear.  (at least relatively) I do struggle with its application in my life. hahaha   In my other profession, I have had many opportunities not only to read court opinions involving church mess, but also to sit in on cases, and even to assist a church or two in resolving legal issues in the courts.  It of course is a shame when stuff like that happens, but it does...usually started by someone who does not abide by or follow that scripture. 

  As I have understood it, that reference applies to us as to the taking of "believers" to court.  If that is true, then the next question becomes "who is a believer?"  Are those clients of mine who I met in church and signed on the bottom line to pay as I represented them in court, resolved their issue(s) favorably and now have not paid on their bill in over a year real believers?  Well, thus far they aren't acting like it.  And thus far I have not taken them to court...but I need my cheese!!!  hahaha  (okay, didn't mean to vent, but wanted to assist in making a point.)  I do not plan on taking them to court at all.  I do realize that God is my source.   ;)

  Anyway, back to the issue at hand,  there is a time for "righteous indignation."  There is a time to be angry and "sin not."     

  (whoops...I have been interrupted with other things over the last 1.5hours and have not been able to get back to my response. And I have to go now.  Will post this and hopefully finish later.)

ddupree

 

Our Father spoke these words to me Friday night as I was driving home from church.  I want you to know just how important forgiveness is.

Forgive them father, for they know not what they do.

Matthew 6:12 And for give us our debts as   we forgive our debtors.  Emphasis added.    As -- while, to the same degree, with the same measure.   We are bound to our enemies, to those you wrong us, to them that despitefully use us.  God forgives us as, while, to the same degree, with the same measure, that we forgive them. 

Matthew 6:14-15, Mark 11:25 
For if you forgive men their trespasses, you heavenly Father will also forgive you.  But, if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. 

This message is seen again in the parable of the unforgiving servant.  He owed his master much 10,000 talents.   This is a grand figure the Matthew Henry commentary calls is a king's ransom or a kingdom's subsidy. 

Like the servant we are unable to pay the debt owed for our sins.  We in ourselves are insufficient.  People are fond of saying, it should have been me, beaten, battered, bruised, pierced,  and crucified.   But, truth is, it would have been meaningless, had it been you.  We are insufficient to pay the price. 

Yet, despite all that was owed, his master forgave it all.  Every sin we commit is a debt to God, our master.  He has forgiven it all.  He has cast them into the see of forgetfulness.  He has separated us from them as far as the east is for the west.  We are forgiven, washed clean, pure as snow. 

This kind of forgiveness should produce a grateful heart.  Yet, as the parable unfolds, we see the servant's heart toward his master's compassion.  When a small debt is owed him, 100 pence.  He demands repayment in full, to the point of being unmerciful and cruel.   

How can a man that was just forgiven so much, hold another to such a measily debt.  Yet, we do it every day.  As the parable ends, the unforgiving servant is delievered to his tormentors unil his own debt was repaid.

As we forgive other, God will forgive us. Yet, if we do not forgive other, he will hold us accountable for our own debts.

But this forgiveness thing, it so much bigger than us.  It is about the kingdom of God.  We have been given the power to forgive sin on Earth.  John 20:23 -- If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them, if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.    What is loosed on Earth is loosed in Heaven.  What is bound on Earth is bound in Heaven.   Many cannot see past their own sins.  They cannot see God's outstretched hand, because they are so bound and burdened by their past or present sin. 

Yet, here God is saying we -- his sons and his daughters have the power to forgive them their sins -- to recieve them in love -- keeping  no record of wrong.  If we are men and women after his own heart we will love what God love as God loves. 

God loves his world -- this foul, faithless, sin-filled, some say sin-obsessed world.  This one right here.  This rank, rotten, wretched world. Filled with liars, theives, gossips, murders, rapists, child molesters.  God so loved this world that he gave his only begotten son.   

As a woman after God's own heart, I will love this world and forgive them their sin, as our Father has forgiven me mine.  Because, it is not about me or my rights, but about him and his kingdom and winning souls. 

You know Sage, :)

That word is really what we struggle with & against (in this life) isn't it?  That word, appears to be what separates us from our Protection - our Deity isn't it?  Because THAT word, when in divine operation supernaturally diminishes "self" & increases the Greater HE that is within us.  That word seems to only work for our betterment when we walk in it.  Not from a carnal understanding (e.g. I'm tired of carrying this bitter anger towards others ... so maybe if I "SAY" or "ACT" like it doesn't bother me - it won't!!!) but from a spiritual direction (e.g. GOD please LOOSE from me, whatever it is that separates me from you -please LOOSE from me whatever it is that is preventing me from being the "me" that YOU have design for me to be ... the "me" that brings peace, love & joy to others AND myself!!!)

For (or) Fore - Giveness

Ok Holy Ghost ... Let us receive THIS "ACTION" WORD, in it's parts ... Amen?

When we look at the 1st three letters of this word, beginning with FOR or F-O-R-E it connotes the BEGINNING of a thing - not yet experienced.  To "foreknow" (to know a thing without the benefit of being told, through earthen methods), to "forth-tell" (to prophesy - to speak of things that have not yet happened), to "forewarn" (to admonish the behavior of another BEFORE  the action has taken place) etc.

I'm led to believe that in order to grasp the true meaning of this word, we must first position - posture our spirits.  Posture our spirits to RECEIVE spiritual things from heaven, that have NOT YET come to pass!!!   

If we want FORGIVENESS to permeate generously from within us, we must 1st surrender to HIS PROCESS.  And I'm led that ALL of us (at some point) lose our directional footing (spiritually) along life's way, causing us a temporary "disconnect", from our GOD.

How then, do we "re-connect" with HIM?

Perhaps, through meditation (re-flecting) upon on our PURPOSE - why we are here - in THIS time, in THIS relationship, on THIS job, worshipping at THIS church, in THIS family ... etc, will re-affirm our connection?  Because should we become able to answer at least one of THOSE questions, perhaps PURPOSE, as in "our PURPOSE" for being here on THIS earth, may be more clear?   Once we have some idea of our individual or collective purpose (via HIS Inspiration - The Holy Bible WITH The Holy Ghost), then PERSPECTIVE as seen through GOD's eyes, may be the focal point ... AND ... it is THEN that perhaps The Holy Spirit could begin to extract the bitterness & anger that provides a spiritual disconnect from HIM ... from our hearts. And we may be able to GIVE freely again?

Sage, maybe I've taken this in a whole- nutha' direction from what you'd intended?  It's just that, when reading the script's you had offered, along with the life application of them ... the above is what flooded my spirit!           




Gracious

Gracious,

I honestly hadn't intended any direction.  But, I'll tell you this.  I am being tried right now.  I am struggle to walk in this word in a situation where it would seem wholy impossible to forgive.   

My heart has been profoundly broken.  I am/was stuck in how to walk in the word that God has spoken to me even before the thing was known to me.  I will only tell you that it involves my two year old daughter.  Someone hurt her. 

I only tell you that so that you may have some understanding of my struggle. 

I know God is telling me -- in order to grasp the true meaning of this word, we must first position - posture our spirits.  If we want FORGIVENESS to permeate generously from within us, we must 1st surrender to HIS PROCESS.

Help me Holy Ghost,  I cannot do this alone. 

My Sister,  :'(

Oh Lord!! I am so sorry to hear about your daughter ... & she's only a baby  too!  That anyone would raise one hand to harm her ... surely they will be harmed 100 times worse!!! Because children are so precious to our GOD!!!

And I admire your strength!!! Please never doubt that GOD is with you ... even through this ... you & your precious daughter remain very special to HIM!!!

Do you TRUST the walk of your Pastor?  Are you led that he may help you?

Loving & praying for your strength!!!


Gracious

My Sister Sage,

Another reason that I believe that people find it soooooo hard to FORGIVE, is that  this word is synonymous with being gullible - weak - or with being a "doormat" ... Amen?  This is NOT true!!!

FORGIVENESS is not for whimps, for the faint at heart, or for gullible doormats!!!

This word involves Herculean STRENGTH!!!  It involves KNOWING (without earthen understanding) who YOU ARE AND YOUR PURPOSE!!!  And from what you'd shared in your last post ... GOD is soooooo close to you right now!!!

Maybe I didn't say this right ... but concentrating on forgiveness (I don't believe) is the most important thing.  The most important thing is our connection with GOD & HE will release ALL that needs to go from us ... Amen?

I think your heart knows this already tho' ...  Thank you JESUS!!!

Thank you FATHER and please hold both Sage & her daughter "close & safe" to YOU!!!  Amen & Amen

Thank you for your words of encouragement and strength.  I did understand what you meant. Not concentrating on forgiveness, but on my connection with God. 

I know that is the only way.  There is no other way, because everything in me is screaming and crying out for murder and revenge.  In myself I want to curse and d**n the one who hurt her.