...“certain” CHURCH FOLK !!!

[Gracious]

Hello Saints:

I pray that everyone has been blessed devinely with a renewed mind-body-&-spirit, so as to see clearly their promise/purpose...in this the beginning days of 2005!!!  

*****

Saints, though this is not the "transparency thread"...there is something weighing heavily on my heart, that I do need to let go of...once and for all; however I do need your wisdom, your prayers, and your support.

My Story

I began my faith walk...long before I knew about (as in walked down the aisle of a church...in confession regarding my Savior), the POWER of HIS blood!!! During my formative years, I did not understand how to read the Holy Bible!!! I was not blessed to grow up with a strong church foundation, rather with an intense respect for who I am (my ethnic, and personal family history), obligations regarding humanity, and rudimentary skills regarding the POWER of forgiveness!!!

God's mercy...ever present within me!!!

I believe this to be true especially back then because HE/GOD matured certain gifts within me...to share with others, taking me across "DEEP WATERS" ...to foreign lands & cultures. While sharing the gifts maturing within, I would feel HIS presence, saturating my being...from head to toe!!! "IT" felt like nothing I'd known...ALL I knew was that "IT" connected me with the inner-man (the unseen / the spirit/souls of others). And when I surrendered to "IT"...my inner-man would change and the ART/the gift (including musicians & their instruments) would become one...moving in and out of time & space...engulfing all who would yield to "IT'S" power!!! This PRESENCE wasn't frightening because the appearance of GOOD would start manifesting!!!  People would be inclined to show favor with their encouragement (speaking of my spirit...God's anointing...and this was secular music/jazz & HUUUNEY...the gratuities $$$!!!

God's mercy...ever present within me!!!

Yet, even though I had enjoyed the favor of man...I was hungry...famished!!!...In a place that neither food, nor favor could quench!!!

My spirit unsettled...I did what I'd been trained to do, even as a child...I went back home. HOME...a place of honesty...I was sure that my parents could explain what was going on inside me. Daddy (a consummate Jazz enthusiast) took me to an outdoor concert on the Green...it was on a Saturday.

...Late that afternoon on the Green, after jazz ensembles & big bands had entertained us...Suddenly...as God would have it...a Gospel jazz trio took center stage, and in a latino-bassa rhythm...I heard the alto sax player, leading in the melody of "Oh How I Love Jesus"!!! Now remember, I didn't grow up in church, but I had during my childhood, visited churches from time to time...sooooo...I'd heard the song before... "IT" was familiar. I felt then, what I now know as the anointing. Please understand that HIS presence was not alien to me either...God had visited me with HIS presence on more occasions than I could count...I KNEW HIM...BUT I DIDN'T KNOW HIM!!! AMEN?

God was calling me closer to His presence...Even my dad noticed what was awakening within me!!!...That Saturday...drew me even nearer to HIM...like a powerful magnet!!!

That next day (Sunday) ...I was in the house...in place...in a pew...being blessed by the choir...and spiritually awakened by HIS Word!!! My hunger for Christ portionally satisfied, yet thirsting impatiently, for the taste of His Living Water...IT WAS TIME TO BECOME BAPTIZED!!! A few Sunday's later, I hurried down the aisle, joined the church and on the next first Sunday, was Baptized in the name of the TRINITY, and received Communion...for the first time in my life!!!

FINALLY!!!

Approaching "certain" ABUSES WITHIN THE CHURCH!!!

I am a child of the KING, who has been favored in the areas of singing, exhortation, evangelism, prophecy and sooooo much more. Please do not think me boastful...My righteousness is nothing more than fiflthy rags...in the sight of my Heavenly Father (who TRULY knows my heart)...Yet, I'm excited...excited that each MOMENT of obedience to HIM, yields endless streams of blessings AND responsibility. These areas are only what my Christian-walk have revealed...thus far...The "Comforter" has revealed that there is much more within me that I've yet to see!!!

*****

Beloved, I didn't understand what abuse truly was...until I joined my 1st church home!!!

Through "a watchful eye of prayer"...I've seen that not everyone walks in their anointing...there is a fearlessness...a divine force, that blankets/COVERS a human-soul, that has been blessed to walk within the promises of God. EVERYTHING...that hath breath will recognize this GODLY FORCE...and pause in HIS presence, with "Awe" (whether they desire to, or NOT)!!!...However, many will fall into the pit of "ENVY & JEALOUSY"...FOR ME...THAT'S WHERE THE "ABUSE" ENTERED...

"certain" CHURCH FOLK'... :-/

Lord ham' muuurcy ...where to start How does one describe "certain" CHURCH FOLK. "They" are usually in leadership positions and these "certain" CHURCH FOLK continuously allow the enemy within them, to rule them. "They" are usually fine...peaceful & Christ-like, UNTIL they come across a spirit of conviction!!!...A saint that causes them to see themselves as an individual grain of sand among billions...rather than a bright  sparkling creation, in the image of Elohim. Totally ignoring what their SWORD says they are ("...Fearfully and wonderfully made...") "They" allow demonic spirits to speak to their ego's regarding the how of trying to control-contain-hinder the ways in which God would use "another" (that saint who's sheer presence, causes them to feel less than they truly are).

I don't know how many of you have ever been on either side of that hurtful lonely place (thinking you are ALL THAT, until a saint under the anointing of BETTER shows up...or you happen to be the saint who is assumed "THE THREAT", and must endure angry-spiteful-evilness from a person(s) appointed to lead you)...EITHER is sheer hell...believe you me!!!

Beloved, that HELL...of presumption imposed upon me by "certain" CHURCH FOLK in leadership positions, caused me to pick up my bible...seek out bible study...and merge (as in develop a spiritually-religious relationship with one of the mothers of my church...all the while...STAYING PROSTRATE BEFORE THE LORD!!!

Now for me, keeping a positive attitude takes faith, focus/determination, and a healthy hearty sense of humor, BUT, "certain" CHURCH FOLK make it very difficult...

Understanding Gods GRACE, how do I deal with "certain" CHURCH FOLK, whom I believe...love the Lord, have known of HIM most of their lives...are in leadership positions...but really don't have a relationship with HIM. Meaning, they won't make a move without "PRAYING ON IT"...yet alienate most who truly cares for them, because of their mean-spirited actions?? Is it time for me to move on...to another ministry?? Or...What???

 
Graciously seeking His TRUTH

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[Forum Administrator]

Hi Gracious! I know all too well the wrath, fury, and misunderstood interpretations and disillusionment of jealousy and envy. Even leaders are susceptible as they are human and have to overcome the carnal nature as we all do.

Two thoughts come to mind as I read through your post. The first is this: mean-spirited "certain" church folk should never be the cause of your leaving a church. There is something to be learned from every experience that God allows us to endure. Take a closer look at what you're experiencing and see what "good" God is trying to bring out of it on your behalf. You will find "certain church folk" in every church. So if you leave to get away from them, you will run into them in the next House. Allow God to use this experience to mature you and establish and settle you in Him. Remember: it's not about the sheep; it's about the Shepherd. The next time one of these folks is bothering you, remind yourself of that and when you think of them, smile to yourself and use Artina Norris' (one of our moderators) ministry motto and say (to yourself concerning them), It ain't about you.  

That brings me to my next thought which follows closely with the first. When it comes to the question of moving on, the motivation should be growth not what others are or are not doing. Be prayerful (as I'm sure you already are); keep your motives pure. If your reason for wanting to leave has anything to do with anyone who is at your present church, you should stay right there until the only reason for leaving is you. When God wants to move you, you will know it. He will make it so clear to you that to stay will become a grief and a burden to you. He will free up your hands and heart so that there is nothing left to do but leave. And when you do leave, you'll be stronger in faith, more mature in your relationship with the Lord, and better equipped to deal with the "mean-spirited certain church folk" that you will meet in the next House.  

In the meantime, I'll encourage you the same way God encouraged me when I encountered "mean spirited certain church folk" and I felt persecuted in the House:  So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good. 1 Peter 4:19 (emphasis mine).  

[Dennis Sawyers]

Graciously Seeking His Truth (what a handle),

In honest, as I read through your posting, I don't really get an understanding of the problem that you face with "certain church folk."  It would be helpful if you could clearly state what has been done to you.  Your message decribes this "certain person," but does not speak to what he/she has done to offend you.

I agree with the previous response, "There is something to be learned..."  I understand that we can never truly know all of the mind of God.  He is too high, too deep, too wise, etc. for any of us to ever fully comprehend everything about Him.  His ways are not our ways.  As high as the heavens are above the earth, His thoughts are higher than ours.  He chooses to process us through pain.  He causes us to grow by breaking us down.  

If you can, as the previous respondent advised, seek to understand what it is that the Lord wants you to learn through your present situation, then go further and say, "Yes, Lord." to whatever His will is, I believe that you will experience the change that is needed.  And, that change is not likely to have anything to do with "certain church folk," but with you.

I've been where you are; although, it wasn't in church.  It was on my job.  I was able to see clearly the issue with those who opposed me.  I "knew" what I was bringing to the table, and faulted them for not recognizing it or having ill motives when dealing with me.  Then the Lord used a brother to gently warn me against PRIDE.  When he spoke of it, I quickened in my spirit.  I knew that warning was from God.  I began to immediately recall scriptures about pride, "...pride goeth before a fall...,"  "...the Lord hates even a proud look...," etc.  I realized that my situation was serious, but it had nothing to do with those who I thought offended me.  I had to repent, and get over myself.

Long story short...my perspective changed.  I stopped thinking that I was owed so much, and maintained an attitude of gratitude.  I realized that I didn't deserve any of the good that was coming my way, and I needed to continue to trust God, not man, to do for me what I needed.  All promotion comes from God.  When a man's ways please the Lord, He will make even that man's enemy's to be at peace with him.

Friend, be steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord.  And, know this, your labor in the Lord is not in vain -- what you endure that you might grow in God is not in vain.  The Father loves you so deeply -- so much so, He intends to raise you up, mature you, and remove all spots and wrinkles by any means necessary.  Bend with Him.  Say, "Yes, Lord."  The victory is already yours.

Much love to you.
Dennis

[Gracious]

Madame Forum Admin.:

Please accept my sincere gratitude for your spiritually wise counsel regarding my situation...For lovingly confirming/guiding me to the understanding that in every valley experience, there is a lesson:

"...There is something to be learned from every experience that God allows us to endure..."

And again, when you said:

"...You will find "certain church folk" in every church. So if you leave to get away from them, you will run into them in the next House. Allow God to use this experience to mature you and establish and settle you in Him. Remember: it's not about the sheep; it's about the Shepherd. The next time one of these folks is bothering you, remind yourself of that and when you think of them, smile to yourself and use Artina Norris' (one of our moderators) ministry motto and say (to yourself concerning them), It ain't about you..."

Your right!!!...Learning how to live-in / mature in... the "CHRIST" of my faith, dictates that I must let go...and TRUST GOD!!!

...Because it's not about...His sheep...it's about His Shepherd...THE GOOD SHEPHERD!!! Amen?

AWESOME...Just...AWESOME!!!

My soul says:  "YES & AMEN"!!!...Thank you sooo much

*****

Sir Dennis:  

In honest, as I read through your posting, I don't really get an understanding of the problem that you face with "certain church folk."  It would be helpful if you could clearly state what has been done to you.  Your message describes this "certain person," but does not speak to what he/she has done to offend you.

My response:

Lord ham' muuurcy ...where to start  How does one describe "certain" CHURCH FOLK. "They" are usually in leadership positions and these "certain" CHURCH FOLK continuously allow the enemy within them, to rule them. "They" are usually fine...peaceful & Christ-like, UNTIL they come across a spirit of conviction!!!...A saint that causes them to see themselves as an individual grain of sand among billions...rather than a bright sparkling creation, in the image of Elohim. Totally ignoring what their SWORD says they are ("...Fearfully and wonderfully made...") "They" allow demonic spirits to speak to their ego's regarding the how of trying to control-contain-hinder the ways in which God would use "another" (that saint who's sheer presence, causes them to feel less than they truly are).
 
I don't know how many of you have ever been on either side of that hurtful lonely place (thinking you are ALL THAT, until a saint under the anointing of BETTER shows up...or you happen to be the saint who is assumed "THE THREAT", and must endure angry-spiteful-evilness from a person(s) appointed to lead you)...EITHER is sheer hell...believe you me!!!  
 
Beloved, that HELL...of presumption imposed upon me by "certain" CHURCH FOLK in leadership positions, caused me to pick up my bible...seek out bible study...and merge (as in develop a spiritually-religious relationship with one of the mothers of my church...all the while...STAYING PROSTRATE BEFORE THE LORD!!!

Dennis, My impression from your response is that you feel that the issue for me may fall in the area of pride...as in my own.

I have never been one to flaunt anything that is not mine. Meaning, my temple which houses my soul...was bought and paid for with a price...Not Mine, doesn't belong to me!!!...

God's promises...though I am graced to walk in them...Not Mine, I don't own them...His mercies endureth forever!!!...

God's gifts (up to and including His anointing)...through learned obedience...I am graced to walk in them...Not Mine, don't belong to me!!!...I'm merely a vessel at the bid of HIS choosing, to be used until...!!!

Soooo, I humbly ask where would my pride..."that cometh before the fall..." enter into this particular situation???

Gracious

P.S.

Friend, be steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord.  And, know this, your labor in the Lord is not in vain--what you endure that you might grow in God is not in vain.  The Father loves you so deeply--so much so, He intends to raise you up, mature you, and remove all spots and wrinkles by any means necessary.  Bend with Him.  Say, "Yes, Lord."  The victory is already yours.
 
Much love to you.
Dennis

Awesome Wisdom my brother...I shall hide each precious word...DEEP...within mine heart!!!

THANK YOU...THANK YOU...GOD BLESS YOU!!![/color]

[bishopbiscuits]

Gracious,

........A few things came to my mind while reading. I will assume that this is a case of misunderstanding. Though there may have been more added, it may be the start of the "snowball." If you have confusion mixed with fear, almost anything can happen.

1Protocol
Normally groups create an order or protocol for how they plan to operate and function. Many times people afterwards will just expect others to "absorb" this knowledge, and are offended when their "process" has been ignored or broken.
.......It's not fair  to newer people, especially motivated people, who may have a greater tendency to run smack into these hidden protocols. But since there is an order, learn it. You may need to operate within it to be effective where you are.

2Fellowship
.......Have you been in direct and indirect fellowship with those in authority over you to give them a true glimpse of the gift bearer? They may not know you well enough to know your true nature and intentions.Sometimes in earnest zeal, we can overwhelm those who have not caught the vision, yet. So while you are busy sharing what's on your heart to do, they may be trying to determine who you are and what you are about.
.....Some people are cautious when great intentions and sweet sounding words come from someone that they are not sure of, especially if they bear great responsibility. Those who are accountable may eventually warm up to  and allow room for you  to operate as you are led by God when their spirit and mind bear witness to the mind and spirit that it's coming from. Pray for an understanding of how to love them, and over time -if you have humbly and confidently established yourself- barriers can be worn and broken down.

3Revelation
....Consider this: God gave you a vision and let you see the end before the means was revealed/established. If you are in or take on leadership roles you have to have an idea of where you are going. But in order to help steer things (in agreement with your leadership) you needed this vision first. Now is the time to prepare the revelation into something translatable as possible to others.
....For instance, one of my favorite colors is blue-green. Not green with a little blue, but primarily blue with some green. I never got those two crayons mixed up when I was a kid, because one pleased me, while the other was just nice. Because I knew the color that I desired, I could sift through the crayon box easily to reach for my blue-green when I wanted it, or could mix paint to create the desired color as well.
.....Let God continue to break down the recipe of what He's cooking, so that you all can bring together the ingredients, and be in a position to receive the delicious results.

1john 4:18 Perfect love casts out fear
So learn how to love them, be aware of how you present yourself and the vision, and be shown faithful and pure in your desires. Faithfulness even in adversity, can yield great results.
  :)The vision to you may seem simple addition and subtraction, but they may see a different equation.
......In the end focus on what you can control; yourself and how you share the vision. Keep your confidence, but give time to let some things behind the scenes get worked out. You not only want something great, but an experience that can be maintained.

[Gracious]

Tuuu' ZEEE FABULOUSZZZA' Madame Forum Administrator & SPIRITUALLY DELICIOUS DW Family:-* ,

Perhaps a year or so ago...I'd opened my heart to the Deep Waters family, and exposed something that (at the time) was truly painful...the thread was called...Certain Church Folk (CCF) 

Whelp!!! as GOD would have it, you & Bro.'s Sawyer & BB responded...and your words truly changed my heart!!!

Those words - were friendly & kind & given in such a way, as to not break/bruise my spirit, but admonish me to seek the face of GOD...in order to heal and THEN acquiesce to HIS WILL regarding Certain Church Folk and my Church (which is within me  ...Amen? )

Today (January '06), I'm still at the same church (outwardly speaking of course - LOL) ... BUT ... through mu-u-u-ch prayer AND fasting, I'm beginning to SEE change ... change "Within My Church" - within my temple, that is. This "change" has increased my ministry triple-fold!!! And I feel like GOD is skinnin' -n- grinnin' at the change ... 'cause ... I mean, when one thinks about hard-headedness ... whaaaal ... that was me!!! A HAAAARRRDDD - Headed chruuustian chile. I mean, I held onto pain, like "IT" was the last morsel of food I was ever gonna eat!!!

But NOW - Thank ya' J-E-S-U-S, my nature has changed ... so that my instinct is to CHOOSE - LIFE!!! Not only do I "say" that I trust in GOD ... I actually mean that thang!!! Amen??? And what a RELEASE!!! No longer do I worry or get fluxed (uneasy) 'bout CCF; I simply focus my energies on livin' in HIM ... this makes me happy/ balances me so that I am FREE to WORSHIP in HIM!!!

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you,

Gracious