Deep Waters Relationship Advice

My youngest daughter, not quite 20, miscarried her first child at 4 months.  She had a horrible pregnancy and stayed sick through most of the pregnancy.  She had to give birth and it was a very sad time.  She is not married.

Our Pastor hasn't been very supportive because he felt that she was disobedient when she didn't take a 3-hour bus ride to go with our chuch to a speaking engagement.  He said the Lord said for her to go and when she opted not to go he said in front of the entire congregation that her baby died because of her disobedience (and that of the father who also did not go because he stayed with her because she was sick).

She does not like our ministry (which I am a leader) and would not praise and would seemingly have an attitude during our services.  She's been this way for years.  She really wanted to leave the ministry, but I wouldn't allow her to do so. 

She wasn't at church the other day when our Pastor WENT OFF!  He talked about her standing in the back of the church pouting and not wanting to be there.  He talked about her being disobedient and not going on the trip.  He further said that we (the membership) should not mess with the anointing (he is a prophet) for death was inevitable.  He said that another member told him that if my daughter and her boyfriend swayed from obedience to his words, something would die.

The point is that my daughter had a horrible delivery even though she did not deliver a fully developed child.  She has been sickly most of her life and on top of that, her father left at a young age and broke her heart.

She is hurting very much because regardless to this, she has had a major loss in her life.  There is no counseling, our Pastor has not even called her.  I am praying that when she returns to the service this Sunday, that he will not callously over the pulpit repeat all he said to me in front of the congregation. To blame her for the death of her child . . . of my goodness!  Even Christ was compassionate when Peter messed up . . . even when he denied Christ!

My daughter believes in the Lord.  Her boyfriend was new to Christ, but they made a poor decision to be "close" before marriage. 

How do I help this hurting young lady?  She's so detached from her feelings, but she is experiencing anger and hurt right now.  I am instructed through my Pastor, per the Lord, to leave her alone.

I'm hurt, but I will be alright.  I just need to hear from other women who maybe have experienced this and can tell me how to help my child.  Yes, Jesus is a healer.

I don't really want to dialog about how right or wrong my Pastor is or was.  I just needed to get the point out; however, I do need to know how to help my daughter.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Hi Breathedonme. I am so deeply sorry for what you, your daughter, and the baby's father are going through right now. I have never experienced miscarriage but have had a few close friends who have so I'm just writing out of my heart right now. How do you help her now? Let her know you are there for her. Do not "leave her alone." The Bible says those who are strong should bear the infirmities of those who are weak and we should bear one another's burdens. We should weep with those who weep. Reach out to her with the love and compassion that Christ has put in you as her mother. Show her love, as much as she can receive, but don't take it personally if she may not always be fully receptive. That might mean just holding her from time to time (if she's comfortable with being held right now), or kissing her on her forehead, or stroking her hair, or holding her hand, whatever communicates love to her. Death affects people in different ways, and each person goes through the grieving process differently. Allow her to grieve. As you have opportunity, gently encourage her. Wait until she's ready to talk, don't force her; just let her know that whenever that time comes, if she needs someone to listen to her, you're there for her. Pray for her, cry with her. At some point, she may be open to having or receiving some sort memorial or token to celebrate the life the baby had and would have had and has now in heaven. She's in a very vulnerable state right now. Keep her away from tactless, uncompassionate people. The people who have been there for her and who truly encouraged her before she got pregnant and while she was going through her pregnancy are most likely the ones who will show her true love and support now. She needs a safe place to be right now. If your church is not a safe place for her, don't take her there. I will be praying for you all.

Hello Breath,

Sorrow is what is in heart after reading your post.  Sorrow for your daughter, her child, the father, you & most of all ... sorrow for your pastor.

Clearly, your pastor has drawn negativity towards him & he feels defenseless against it.  His actions though irreprehensible, are typical of them who've sinned horribly against the WILL of GOD.   Just, pray for him ... AND PLEASE, PLEASE DO "NOT" ALLOW YOUR PRECIOUS DAUGHTER ANYWHERE NEAR THAT MINISTRY OR HIM ... UNTIL HE HAS REPENTED "PUBLICALLY' FOR HIS VERBAL ASSAULTS AGAINST YOUR CHILD!!!

Do you not see that his public display (concerning your pastor's actions on your daughter), had little to do with her & EVERYTHING to do with YOU & the fact that he (your pastor) is seriously threatened by your spirit & the ministry that is held inside of you???   The fact that he chose to make public & bask in the pain of them who's souls are charged to his care, should be evidence enough that he does & has for a loooong time felt threatened!  Only a seriously wounded soul is capable of such religious & spiritual malfeasance!

Bur ENOUGH about him!!! ::) >:(

About your precious daughter  ...

GOD sho' new what HE was doing when HE gave her to YOU ... Amen? :-*

How is she PHYSICALLY???  Do the physicians know why she prematurely delivered? Was her womb damaged in ANY WAY???  THIS IS IMPORTANT!!!  Do NOT settle for "unsureties " from them!  This is one time when as a woman ... YOU NEED TO "KNOW" ALL ABOUT THE WHY's ...Amen?  Be not afraid to ASK these doctor's ... even at the risk of annoying them.  Why?  'Cause it is their "legal & moral" responsibility to answer you ... Quickly & CORRECTLY!!!

Now, I'm not a doctor, but I'm connected to ONE ... AND my spirit is telling me that the closest that a woman can come to leaving this world is during "delivery" ... Amen?  Use this time to have her COMPLETELY examined ... from head to toe!!!  YOU KNOW  & teach her how to know  EXACTLY where she is concerning her physical health barometer!

Next, her spiritual Health ...

After reading your post ... i understood just why THE SON (and The Apostle Paul) spoke against churched denominations ... Amen?  Why we think that if our pastoral leadership has forsaken us ... we are doomed, is truly sad!!! 'Cause that's what I used to think ... BUT GOD!!!  Girl, it took devastation to PUSH me out the doe' ... so that I could learn how to TRUST & DEPEND on GOD & GOD ALONE!!!  It took REJECTION for me to actually walk into another House of Worship and receive HIS blessings!  It took anger, hurt, fear & desperation for me to learn how to STAND - on my own without hiding behind (not under - but behind) the covering of the unworthy!!!

I'm saying that YOU are the ministry FOR your family!!!  GOD has chosen YOU ... for this time!!!  And HE has equipped YOU amazingly for it!  Think about ALL that you've been through in you life!  Who else BUT GOD could have seen you through all that mess so safely!!! HUH???  Girl ... GET IN YO' PRAYER CLOSET & SHUT DA' DOE' ... FALL TO YOUR KNEES & DON'T GET UP UNTIL YOU HAVE R-E-C-E-I-V-E-D!!!

No one KNOWS your adult daughter (yo' baby) better than you do!!!  Do not let the devil confuse your mind into thinking that you don't know what to do for your "OWN" chile'!!!   You know how to grab a hold of yo' baby girl & love her!!!  You know how to cry with her!  You definitely know how to pray ... WHAAAL ... pray for & with her ... especially NOW ... when her spirit is desperately trying to find HIM.  Right now your daughter NEEDS to see all of the JESUS you got!  And you got lots!!!

There's soooooooo much more I could say, but I'll give others who've come to love (as much as I have) some room ... Amen?

How does that song by Bishop Paul Morton go? ...




Gracious

Amen FA ...

I know that you speak HIS TRUTH ... because your compassionate words have helped me sooooooo much as well (both now & in the past) ... isn't that just like GOD!!!  Thank you - thank you!!! :-*

Dear Breathedonme  :)


................This reminds me of something tragic that happened to loved ones of mine some time ago.
.................They had a child who was born prematurely, and had some serious issues that would likely  affect him the rest of his life.  The child fought through every challenge given him, only to succumb to pneumonia at less than 2 months old.
.................My first reaction was to be stunned and overwhelmed, trying to digest what happened. My second reaction was to help in any way that I could. A free shoulder, a ready ear, and an open heart were what I was able to share.
................Just be there for her. Let your love and care be steadfast and unconditional. It is not about you completely understanding all that happened. It is about her knowing and understanding that there is an anchor  and a shore to go to in you, regardless of anyone else.
...............I'll be praying for your family..............BB

People of God - thank you so very, very much.

You confirmed what I decided last night after returning from church.

Sunday was interesting.  My daughter and her boyfriend came back to church after everything happened.

The boyfriend was deeply hurt because no extension of love or words of sympathy was given by our Senior Pastor toward him.  He said that this Pastor told him in front of the entire congregation that he was a son to him and that the Pastor would take him in.  This young man has not had a father figure since age 8, nor has he had a positive male figure in his life.  He believed what this Pastor told him.  He was so hurt that this Pastor hasn't called him or my daughter.  I told him not to worry, I am one of his leaders and he hasn't called me either - so be it.

I had to stay at church all day to serve, and it was so hard knowing that my "children" have been treated so poorly.  I finally decided that I will release them from attending this church and that they would have to find a church.  My goodness, what a release I received after making this decision.  My daughter and her boyfriend need grief counseling, but particularly my daughter.  The boyfriend needs a strong male mentor to show him and help in this Christian walk, since this is all new to him.  They both need marital counsel because they'd like to marry, but they know they can't now.

My goodness, then I checked out DEEPWATERS to see if anyone responded, and the confirmation was there - get them out of that church.  Praise God!

Now, I know I am going to receive the rebuke, possibly told to get the boyfriend out of my house because something bad is going to happen.  I believe I am strong enough to take it.  I will probably lose my title, which is fine.

Church is not a place of peace for me nor comfort.  Although my Pastors have been extremely generous and kind to me, it is overshadowed by fear of going to church not knowing what will be said.  Things said in private are released.  NONETHELESS (smile), I have released my "children" to go forth in another ministry and my daughter slept the best she has in a while.

Thank you so much!!!

My daughter and her boyfriend went to a new church this morning, and it was such a blessing.  I had spoken to the Pastor on Friday and relayed their plight.  He said that he and his wife had experienced something similar -- having a pastor tell them that if they left they would die and bad things would happen to them.

Her boyfriend said that there was such peace and freedom there.  To quote, "It was like a breath of fresh air!"

I can feel some of the tension at my church, but God is strengthening me.  I have to admit, I go in scared waiting to be blasted from the pulpit, but so far so good.

The Pastor's wife at the new church they attended today also experienced a miscarriage and was able to minister to my daughter.  Awesome!

Thanks again for the great advice and support.

Dear Breath,

Thank you for sharing the good news about your two loved ones (your daughter & her friend). Soooooo, glad that they have you to guide & nurture them.  Our GOD is awesome ... Amen?

How is your daughter doing concerning her physical health?

:-*

Gracious - thanks for asking.

Her general health is okay.  Her hormone level is still elevated, so they are watching her.

She was complaining about a pain on her right side during the pregnancy, and she was in pain this morning in the same area.  I layed hands on her and prayed.

My oldest daugther is lives in a different state with her new husband is experiencing some medical challenges - she has never had a major problem before.  They aren't sure what is going on. 

My flesh wants me to be fearful that maybe all of the "curses" spoken to me over the pulpit might be in fact true.

It's a terrible thing to go to church praying a blood covering on yourself about your pastor so you won't be attacked.  God help me.

I feel like I am in a bad nightmare -- however, I am fighting with all that I have to hold on to what I know in Christ, not what I feel.

I am ever so grateful for the counsel of strong friends in Christ -- those here on deepwaters and otherwise.  God is faithful.

Thank you again, Gracious.  God bless you.

Love!

Breathed.

I hear you Breathed & I luv ya' too girl, :-*

Yes ... Curses are biblical ... but we know that GOD is the Inspirer of the written Word ... Amen?  Meaning, HE is the One who spoke life into existence! 

To fight the enemy we MUST speak LIFE!!!  To fight the enemy we must open up our S.O.S (Sword Of The Spirit - which is the Word of GOD) and begin to speak 'HIS Words!!!  There is POWER in the spoken Word!!!  when HIS beloved heirs to HIS throne begin to speak HIS Words ... the very atmosphere begins to change ... YOU can feel it & more importantly the "adversary" is put BACK in HIS place ... as a DEFEATED FOE!!!

Chile' I'm about to start SHOUTIN' ALL OVER MY OFFICE!!!

The reason that I've been kinda' persistent about asking about your daughter & her health is because ... doctors these days tend to be like err-body else ... tired, distracted, weary & mo' tired!!!  Do you know how many YOUNG mothers are misdiagnosed AFTER delivery - regardless of whether they deliver prematurely or not??? 

Huh, listenin' to me, you'd thank that my name was DR. Gracious ... Amen?  (LOL) 

Now I'm not trying to scare or frazzle the one last "good" nerve you got ... BUT ... my spirit is telling me to tell you to watch her closely.

Smooches :-* :-* :-*

Well, I have resigned from my church.  Our Pastors met with my daughter, her boyfriend and me at our home at the beginning of this week.

They had not really ministered to them since their baby was birthed and died.  While here they told them that they should stop referring to their baby as a child, because they lost a fetus, not a child.  They also told them to stop referring to the child by his name because IT WAS NOT A CHILD.  Please keep in mind that this "child" was very formed with ears, nose, mouth, legs, arms, toe nails, finger nails -- heart beat, kidneys formed, etc.  When birthed, he looked like a full baby, just only small.  How could he not be a baby.

Needless to say this hurt the couple so very much and angered them.  It was heartless.

The Pastor (female) works in the hospital that my daughter birthed her child and goes to quite often due to her many medical challenges.  Pastor works in the records department.  Can you believe that she viewed my daughter's records and reported it to her husband (the Bishop)!!!!  THAT IS ILLEGAL AND UNETHICAL.  The Pastors told my daughter and her boyfriend that the records said this and that.  I didn't see it, but my daughter noticed that the Pastor hit her husband when he mentioned that they had information from her medical records!!!!

He even told my daughter that she is not sick, but she has a spirit!!!

OH MY GOODNESS!!!

I have been a faithful servant for years.  I have been under such spiritual abuse, that I didn't even realize how much.  We are not permitted to do anything unless we consult with our Bishop.  However, God brought some pastors into my life (my daughter and her boyfriend visited their church and liked it very much).  These pastors came to my house to minister to these young people after hearing such devastating news from these Pastors.  I received my deliverance and felt so free.

My Bishop is not receiving my resignation and has ordered me to be obedient, compliant and submissive to returning.  I have not. 

I have much healing to go through.  I know my name will be dragged through the mud, but it is okay.  I am sad things have to end this way, but I love them.

There's no negotiation -- things have gotten far out of hand.

Please keep us in prayer -- we've been told that we are outside of the will of God if we don't continue attending their church.

Hi Breathedonme. CONGRATULATIONS!!! I'm so glad you made the decision to leave. God's under-shepherds do not slaughter the Shepherd's sheep, and when a sheep is wounded, a good under-shepherd would tend to the wounds not make them worse. I could say a lot more but I would be totally in the flesh  ;) but I will say this: don't allow their selfish manipulation to make you feel in any way guilty. You made the right decision for your family and for yourself. Don't worry about reputation: when others dig a pit for you they'll end up falling into it themselves. Just keep your focus and go and grow!  ;D

Greetings Sister


I truely and really was moved by this post. I'm sorry you had to experience such hurt in the body of Christ!!! May God encourage you and your family richly, for the battle is not yours it's the Lords.  ;)

We must be aware of how we treat Gods children especially those who serve in ministry. I'm glad you decided to leave that church, the spirit of the Lord is not operating there. Those pastor's must repent quickly, there is no time to waste; we are living in the last days and Gods judgement has already started in the church. You cannot afford for your daughter to not serve God, therefore you needed to make a decision that would affect both of you. I pray that God will lead you to the right ministry and would offer counseling to aid in the healing process. I am a counselor and hear many stories like this, the first process is forgiveness, you must forgive them or it will lock up blessing God has in store for you. Your daughter may need deliverance from rebellion and needs restoration. Don't allow death to cripple in and paralyze you. The bible says you shall live and not die to declare the works of the Lord. Proverbs 18: 21 there is life and death in the power of the tongue. Begin to speak healing even if you do not see it, speak peace, love, and a sound mind. Speak, speak life don't die. With that being said we also have the power to reverse curses that were put on us, but you do not want to reverse, just sent everything that was said from the pastors back to sender, ( the devil) and pray for there deliverance because they operated under demonic influence.


We must recognize the open doors we have open and close them because the enemy sees and will take any opportunity to send attaks our way. I will be prayin for you and your daughter and her friend. I hope this brings you closer to the lord and not further.


...I hope I was able to give you some encouragement!

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU SO MUCH --

to the both of you for the encouraging words.

Da2bjeez, I don't believe I am angry and I believe I do forgive them because I see it more as a spirit(s) than anything else.  However, maybe these emotions are underlying -- know what I mean?

My daughter wants to pursue the infringement of her personal medical records, but I truly feel the Lord is leading me to allow Him to handle this.  Because this Bishop talks so freely from the pulpit about things told in confidence, her concern is that he will mention this also.  Again, I am discouraging her from doing this and allow God to vindicate us.

Although I am VERY clear that I did the right thing by leaving, I wonder why I am not rejoicing more?  I feel free, thank you Jesus.  I haven't felt this way in the longest time.  I devoted everything to the ministry and Pastors.  My life was simply, work, church and home (I am a single parent).

For a short time, I was connected to Elder Vikki Johnson, but when I returned to the ministry (yes, I tried leaving before, but was convinced that it was not God's will and returned), one of the things I was told to be obedient to was to no longer connect with Vikki (for the record, he had nothing negative to say about her, he just thought it best that I didn't receive counsel from anyone else)  I was so very hurt because as many may know, she is absolutely awesome and a mighty, anointed vessel of God.  However, because I was given scripture about being obedient to those who are over my soul, I did it.

Now, I've gone from being exceptionally busy in my leadership position to nothing.  Now this isn't all bad (trust me - smile) - I need time to regroup; however, I also need to connect with other people, particularly women, to learn to live again.

My family and I went to the new church this past Sunday.  It was pretty good; lots of love.  It was very, very different, and that is not a bad thing at all. 

Isn't it terrible?  On the night of our Bible Study, when I defied his orders to be there,  I was so frightened that the Bishop and/or his wife (the Pastor) would pop-up at my door.  Would I have been disrespectful by not opening the door?  I felt horrible (but I didn't even have to deal with it). I am avoiding contact with them because of the manipulation and because they (more so the Bishop) know that I have a heart of not wanting to hurt people.  I now understand it more to be a heart of trying to please people.  God help me.

I'm not sure what to do for the healing (I have bouts of sadness, guilt and shame), but I am being STILL and allowing the Lord to speak to me.

Isn't it something, my daugther said she is praying for Bishop despite his cruelty towards her.

I am praying for the ministry because these Pastors really have something there that could be awesome, if the Bishop would let go of some of the controlling, manipulative and painful ways.

Again, I love them and will continue to pray for them, but at a distance.

Thank you all so very much!!!

I have never understood why we allow the under Shepards in our life to treat us in ways that God never would.  God is not manipulative or controlling.  He does not force is will on anyone.  He woos you into submission by first showing you his love for you.   At least that's how it has always work between us. 

Now, I've gone from being exceptionally busy in my leadership position to nothing.  Now this isn't all bad (trust me - smile) - I need time to regroup; however, I also need to connect with other people, particularly women, to learn to live again.

I think God has you right where he wants you.   Keep being still and allowing God to show you more of him.   What was in your Pastor's and Bishop's hearts had to be revealed.  Count it all joy.  Too many people no doubt were being wounded because of it.  God knows what he put in you and your daughter to withstand the trials ahead. 

Praise God for how he is working this situation for the good of those who love him.

You know Sage, that is what I am contending with now.  A high sense of shame and of being a fool.  I have been sexually abused as a child.  I was physically, emotionally and mentally abused in past marriages.  When I got to Christ, I thought I was passed all of this.  I WOULD NOT allow a man to abuse me again.

How could I have let this happen?

We would be given scriptures on why it was right to do the things we were asked to do.  I would read these and cross-reference (or thought I did), and say, okay, we are to respect authority, etc.

My Bishop walks in the prophetic, so some of the prophecies would come to pass.  Leaving made me so fearful. 

I continued to pray to God to help me to be released from this.  He did!!! 

How could I have let this happen????  What is within me to let it go on for so long????

Why wasn't I strong enough?  I am so bold with other matters when ministering to others and fighting for them in the Lord?  HOW???

Hey Breath, Sage, Madame FA & err-body!!! :-* :-*

Breathe,

I feel your "WHY?" I truly do!

Walk with me a minute :)

After reviewing your initial sharing Breathe, & the responses of everyone ... this thought from the 10 Commandments came to me ...

THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME ...

Perhaps this Commandment includes "churchin' " ???

You'd mentioned that before this spiritual shake-up ... your life basically consisted of  church & home.  Which to me is real cool, though I do understand & agree with a need to ummm ... diversify (in a Cruustian way ... Amen? :P )  But what I didn't see you mention was, the time that you'd needed to simply "steal away" ... with HIM.

For me, ANYTIME (which I'm embarrassed to say at times could be often) that "'otha-people" & my imaginations (meaning what others are thinking & sayin/ 'bout me) are more important to me, than the day to day "brand-new" mercies that HE's chosen to abundantly bless me with ... THEN ... THAT is a tell-tail sign, that "I" am placing that THING ahead and or before my Maker ... Amen?

Plainly, concerning our reputations ... GOD is firm!  He says that we are to AVOID the APPEARANCE of evil ... HE says that the administration (church officials) of HIS Bride are to be of a GOOD report!

Before gettin' all caught-up on my previous paragraph ... jus' keep-a-readin' ... ;)

BEFORE "THIS incident ... what was your "rep" in your "church-home? huh ... had to be pretty AWESOME for you to hold such a "respectable position" ... Amen? & AFTER this incident ... WHAT will the congregation THINK about your X-pastor, regarding the poor & public manner in which he's chosen to address an issue that hits one out of EVERY three families in this country (regardless of race, gender or denomination) ???  Huh ...  My guess is that it will be "his" report that will come under-fire!!!  And to the "waggin' tongues" ... HE admonishes us that "he who is without sin ..." !!!

Now, regarding your situation, following the tenacity of your daughter will aide you!!! 

YES!!! Be wise in your concerns ... BUT ... there again, GOD speaks through HIS inspiration that "HE shall PERFECT that which concerns you!

In other words, "IF" your gonna' TRUST in The LORD ... then TRUST!!! 

TRUST that every blessing received from your previous pastor & congregation ... was NOT FROM him & his earthen influence ... it was from the TRUE KEEPER of your soul (our DEITY in Heaven) ... yo' pastor was merely the vessel used to bless ya' with it ... Amen?  TRUSTING in GOD alone means that you shall FEAR no earthen man or woman ... including that Bishop or ANY anointing placed on his life ... YOU FEAR GOD!!!  The ONE who simply has chosen to "operate" within this Bishop - for YOUR good!  And "for your good" means EVERYTHING past & present ... Amen?  Tho' recent events have been extremely painful ... NO CROSS - NO CROWN!    TRUST that HE will deal with your enemies!  Which is why I think you are wise to pray for them! "Cause we know that you ain't been got (dealt with), until you been got by GOD ... Amen?

Lovin' you & yours,

Gracious
:-*

Amen.  You are absolutely correct about stealing away to not put ANYTHING above God.  I receive that.

I am excited about forging ahead.  I can't stay in pity party or misery party for too long  :D  Despite all of the above that I've written, at the end of the day, I choose to live!  Amen?

That's one thing about my walk with God -- I have to raise up from the doldrums.  I know not to trust my emotions; however, I know I do need to answer some of the feelings I've shared here, so as not to make the same mistakes again.  Yes, Gracious, you are SOOO correct.  If I am going to trust God - then I must just TRUST HIM!!!

He knows my heart.  He knows I am not and was not being malicious, etc.  I ask Him every day to order my steps. 

I know that "this too shall pass," and I do know that ALL things work together for good . . .

While with that ministry, I know that I helped many (some I am surprised by) --  many didn't go back into the world, many renewed their relationship with Christ, etc.  Now please be clear, and I think you know my heart, that the glory and honor ALL belongs to God.  I am just humbled and grateful that He used me as a vessel.

Our Daddy above is pretty awesome, isn't He? I do expect greater things.  I can't change the past, but in Him I can SOAR in the future AND THIS TIME, ENJOY THE TRIP without feeling intimidated, beaten and bruised.  I can be free.

Love ya Lady!

Gracious, in a previous post, you told me to keep an eye on my daughter regarding her health . . . well the Lord led you.  She is scheduled for a surgical procedure tomorrow.  Her hormone levels are still slightly up and a sonogram shows that they left some of the placenta in her womb.  Keep in mind, she gave birth early June and this is now mid-July. 

Please keep her in your prayers. 

I am receiving emails, voice messages from people in my church, particularly my Pastor.  It is painful, but I am determined to stay free.  I love them and appreciate it, but I really want to be left alone.

I just needed to let you know, Gracious, that in Christ, you were right on point, Woman of God.  Thank you and thank our precious Lord.

Bless you Breathe :-*

And I just know that we all will continue to keep you, your daughter & her friend ... in our earnest prayers!

Givin' GOD ALL the GLORY!!!

Lovin' you,

Gracious
:-*

I certainly didn't mean my comments to bring about guilt or shame.  I didn't mean them individually, but collectively.  I think much of the teaching in the church with regards to the leadership/congregant relationship is wrongheaded.

I think church leaders should carefully, quietly, prayerfully study Paul.  What kind of man do you think he would be if he were a church pastor today?  Would it look anything like what we see in many churches today?  I am not condemning church leaders pride and privilege are powerful forces.  That is why we should continually pray for our elders. 

I drank the kool-aid once myself.  Drank it all the way down and licked the cup. 

Re: HELP!!! My Daughter Had a Miscarriage and . . . « Reply #20 on: Today at 01:30:53 AM

Quote"...I am not condemning church leaders pride and privilege are powerful forces.  That is why we should continually pray for our elders. 

I drank the kool-aid once myself.  Drank it all the way down and licked the cup.

Hello Sage, :-*

GIRL!!!  You done struck a nerve 'cause ...

What you said, for me, spoke to the underlying "evil" that exists in many churched structures today!!! 

Amen to YOU!!!

Please pray for me 'cause you see, unlike you ... I "do" condemn many  church leaders for seemingly falling prey to this evil.  One by one we see our church leadership "falling" ... right into the hands of the devil!!!  Why?  Huh, because of one word ... P-R-I-D-E !!!

Sure, every Sunday morning, they get up - stand before their congregations - feed them "hell, fire & brimstone" & "we" lap it up (like kool-aide  :P).  And these leaders "actually" con themselves into believing that they've done something for da' LAWD!!!

Then,

They (our churched Leadership) sit in shock & amazement, wonderin' WHY GOD has "shut-up" heaven (HIS bountiful blessings) to them!  They wonder why there are soooo many sad-sinned-sick folk under their covering.  Folk that have been with them for YEARS!  Long enough to at least, have walked in SOME KIND OF VICTORY!!!

Yeah, we got PREACHAS' (Pew Pushers) preachin prosperity to mega-congregations of thousands, SHAMEING their congregants into risking the suffering in their own private homes  because of  throwing their monetary pearls to swine (tithing out of guilt or personal pride)!!! 

Shame on our churched leadership & shame on us for enabling them!!!

"Cause the moment that LIFE hits them ... like what our precious sister Breathe has lovingly shared with us ... THAT'S when the REAL spirit (god) that MOST of these Bishop's, Pastors & Priests reverence ... is exposed!!!

And don't let one of their own have a problem ... huh, you'd think that they would at least stick together & seek to HELP the one in need!  Nope!  If they can't cover it up ... they denounce them the SAME way they would any other lay-person! Attempting to DISTANCE themselves so that noone will see the SIN in their own lives!!!

Yeah, the moment that these so-called "chosen" potentates are granted an OPPORTUNITY,  to allow the PASTOR to stand-up from within them ... what do they choose - whom do THEY choose to serve???  Huh, many of them punk-out & choose to serve/service their "own" pride!!!

To me ... THAT is why our sister Breathe & tens of thousands of Christ-Followers all over this world are left hurting, left wounded & confused ... many of them turning away from their Salvation ... to seek the gods from other religions ... if at all!!! 

Fortunately, our Sister Breathe is more spiritually grounded than many, but even she has shared just how selfish her own leadership has been towards her ... when she NEEDED - THE CHRIST ... to show-up in them for HER - the most!

Chile' don't get me started!!! ::)

Now ... fo' REAL ... to be fair, not ALL of 'um (churched Leadership) are this way or act this way ... Amen?  But from what I've seen ... a whole slew of 'um do!!!

Whew!!!  Takin' some DEEP brefffs ...   OK ...  I'm better now!!! :)  Thx for listenin'!!!

Lovin' you Sista' Sage, :-*


Gracious

Sage,

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not apologize.  I'm not that thinned skinned and not everything we say in the body can be sugar coated.  That was right on point and helped me to share my inner feelings.

The Word says for us to study to show ourselves approved . . . as one dear friend said, the reason why we get so "sucked" in by some of these erroneous teachings is because most in the congregation don't read the Word or study it, and take everything the preacher says as truth!!!

I thank the Lord for you and what you provided.

Gracious, my girl came through the procedure wonderfully, thank you Jesus.  It cause her to really breakdown over the loss of her child, which she hadn't done (the anesthesia helped also - LOL).

It's sad that they didn't do the D&C after the birth.  Again, Gracious, you were right on point.  I thank God so very much for the gifts in the Kingdom.

The manipulation was subtle and great.  I felt that although I wasn't feeling much of what was going on, that it was me.  When I became free, I should have stayed free.  I wonder if there was a deep need to feel accepted since I've had so much rejection in my life.  Hmmmmmmmm

If that is the case, how many more of us????  The gifts, the kudos of my hard and diligent work?  Well, I won't go nuts trying to totally figure it out.

I remember that my Pastor took the teaching in John 10 to be that when the sheep hear the Shepherd's voice that it meant him.  I always thought that what I read was that the sheep (us) hears the Shepherd's voice (the Shepherd being Christ) and we follow Him.  I started falling away from the ministry even more during these teachings; however, it is being said that I left because I got my feelings hurt because the Pastor didn't call when my child lost the baby.  THAT'S OKAY!!! 

My brother in Christ has brought John 10 back to me, particulary v. 29 that no man can pluck me out of the hands of God.  Right now things are seemingly going haywire and my flesh wants to believe it is because of a curse by being out of the will of God by no longer attending that church.  HOWEVER, I refuse to receive that.  NO MAN CAN PLUCK ME OUT OF GOD'S HANDS.  Isaiah 54 says that God has inscribed my name in His hand!  He remembers me -- He remembers us.

I left a ministry, not Christ.  My daughter attended our church for years and hated it.  She just started with this new church and has already VOLUNTEERED to work with the children.  YOU JUST DON'T KNOW HOW AWESOME THIS IS.  HALLELUJAH!

Saints, please continue to pray for us.  This is certainly a process, but I love Jesus and plan to stay on this course of liberty and freedom.

I love you and thank you so very, very much!

I love Jesus, DON'T YOU??????

Wow!  I had been so involved with other things, I missed this thread.  But I am so glad that I read through it this morning.  Breathed, I am so sorry that you have had to go through all you have had to go through.  What a shame.  But you have been given some excellent advice all the way through.  I am so glad that you got the strength and fortitude to leave. 

I have come to understand a different take on the scripture, "woe unto you who are at ease in Zion." (Amos 6:1) I used to believe that it just was for those "pew sitters" who were not involved in "church work."  But I now understand that it also means those who work hard in church and have gotten comfortable in the branch of Zion and therefore sometimes have to be like the baby bird..pushed out of the nest.  Well, Breathed, take this as a Word from the Lord: for you to go to your next level of ministry, you have to be in a place that will take, push, prod, encourage, stimulate you into that next level.  And it is not that the next "place" will be more spiritually "wonderful" than the previous, but it will be that the areas for your growth will be allowed to flourish. 

You see, oftentimes, our working our ministry talents overshadows the development (and use) of our ministry gifts.   :)  I hope that makes sense to you. 

I will encourage all those who have posted in this thread to intercede on behalf of the church Breathed left--for the sake of the sheep, and the pastors. 

As I referenced the scripture above, I looked at some other "woeful" scriptures:


Isaiah 5:21
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! 

Isaiah 10:1
Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed;


Jeremiah 23:1
Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

Ezekiel 13:3
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Ezekiel 34:2
Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

Unlike God, if I were to decree something falsely, it does not automatically become true.  Sure, I do believe there is a return to the prophetic of old where prophets will begin to speak as Elijah, Ezekiel, Moses and others, but all that has to be in context with the Word of God and in cooperation with the plan the Holy Spirit is carrying out in the earth.  If not, then you would have prophet A speaking to stop rain, prophet B speaking to make it rain and prophet C decreeing that prophets A and B hold their peace.  :-)  What a mess!  It is true we don't know how to pray as we ought which is why we have to allow the Holy Spirit to make intercession for us, so we don't pray amiss. 
Well, I have gotten totally off track now. hahaha  Guess I better end this here. :-)

dd

p.s.  a word about that Matt 23:13.  We are in a situation where I believe we are living under an "open" heaven.  Whatsoever we bind on earth is bound in heaven.  What we loose on earth is loosed in heaven.  Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. So Jesus says woe to those folk who close heaven off to people trying to experience heaven on earth.  God desires us to "tap in" to the Glory, now.  We have to get in His presence.  "Oh for a closer walk with God."

dd

OH MYYY! ! ! !  AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME!

I love God for He provides what we need.  Thank you and God bless you.

There are times when I feel like I've wasted so much time as I am older now.  However, remember how old Moses was before he started out? ? ?  LOL.

This is definitely a process.  Thank you for praying for my former Bishop and Pastor.  He truly has powerful potential and can blow the gates of hell wide open, if he can stay focused.  His wife, the Pastor, is an anointed prayer vessel whom I love dearly and it was my good pleasure and honor to serve this humble servant of God.

I don't think she would have gone through my daughter's medical records unless she was MADE to do so.  God bless them both.  I love them dearly.

Thanks again!

God bless!